• Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by rcthompson04
 
JimBoylan wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:56 pm
ApproachMedium wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:39 am(cannot change pans anymore without lowering both)
Can you run with both pantographs up in a sleet or ice storm?
I have seen both up in a rain storm before.
  by 8th Notch
 
Double pan orders are issued when excessive sleet or ice forms on the wire. What AM was referring to is the change in software that no longer lets us keep one pan up while changing to the lowered one.
  by JimBoylan
 
ApproachMedium wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:39 am(cannot change pans anymore without lowering both)
JimBoylan wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:56 pmCan you run with both pantographs up in a sleet or ice storm?
8th Notch wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:35 pm What AM was referring to is the change in software that no longer lets us keep one pan up while changing to the lowered one.
How do you get both pantographs up if you 1st have to lower the other one?
  by ApproachMedium
 
To do any reconfiguring of the pantograph, you have to lower whatever ones are raised, and then you can raise them in whatever configuration you want. Its, stupid.
  by photobug56
 
What is your power source to raise a pantograph when both are down? And if batteries, what sort of capacity do they have?
  by ApproachMedium
 
Pantographs are rasied by air, and held up by air. its commnaded by the computer. The battery lasts for i dont know how long, but its at least a few hours without any major load.
  by 8th Notch
 
If the locomotive is dead without another source of air for an extended period of time then there is a smaller auxiliary air compressor that is suppose to give you enough air to raise the pan. So far I’ve only experienced one ACS completely die sitting in the station for 3-4 hrs without overhead because of a random power flip.
  by 8th Notch
 
ApproachMedium wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:05 am To do any reconfiguring of the pantograph, you have to lower whatever ones are raised, and then you can raise them in whatever configuration you want. Its, stupid.
They can’t seem to figure out the car wash mode either….
  by rcthompson04
 
642 had two Sprinters running with pantographs up this morning when it passed the SEPTA push pull set I was riding (9590). One of the few occasions when one Sprinter gets to overtake another.
  by ApproachMedium
 
8th Notch wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:41 am
ApproachMedium wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:05 am To do any reconfiguring of the pantograph, you have to lower whatever ones are raised, and then you can raise them in whatever configuration you want. Its, stupid.
They can’t seem to figure out the car wash mode either….
Car wash mode has been broken since Version 11. They dont know that though.

A small battery operated compressor raises pantographs when engines are started cold. This has been this way since AEM-7 days. The ye olde engines had spring raised pans, which were activated by a solenoid that could be released manually from the ground by a pantograph pole or by supplied air from another source, or a bicycle pump. I think the Gs might have had a small aux compressor but i have no idea.
  by ExCon90
 
The MP54's had a hand pump mounted below the car floor, accessible from trackside. I don't know about the Silverliners -- never thought about it before.
  by ApproachMedium
 
ExCon90 wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:34 pm The MP54's had a hand pump mounted below the car floor, accessible from trackside. I don't know about the Silverliners -- never thought about it before.
Silverliners and arrows have a hand pump under a seat
  by JoshKarpoff
 
Non-RRer here, but I am an electrical engineer with experience in power and electronics for both public and private sector projects. At age 40 now, my career is mostly in field troubleshooting and less in the design aspect of things. Based on previous entries it seems like there are several distinct areas of problems, from software, data signals, connector hardware, etc. It sounds like Siemens is using a CAN Bus architecture with various controller nodes throughout the locomotives and along the train line data link. CAN Bus is an ISO standard, originally developed by German manufacturer Bosch and has been loved by OEM manufacturers and hated by field engineers, techs and mechanics ever since. CAN is used in EVERYTHING nowadays and it has its benefits and its downsides. It is used in every single car and over the road truck, used in Airbus aircraft, factory machinery, and even on Broadway shows (my current industry). OEMs like it because it's "off the shelf", cheap, uses a small number of wires to transmit data between nodes and provides "flexibility".
Most manufacturers of large, complex, machinery have moved to overly complex computer controlled systems because computerized systems are cheaper to design and make than mechanical systems. This is especially true if you are making customized versions of a product line for multiple customers, like Siemens is for Amtrak, Brightline, VIA, etc. Instead of having to do completely custom wiring harnesses and hardware to meet each customer's specs, they just build nearly identical units and use custom software, developed by 3rd party outsourced developers who live wherever coding labor is cheapest today. All large equipment manufacturers outsource much of their initial code development to 3rd parties and when the final product is delivered, the team that did the actual coding is long gone and the team supporting the updates is entirely different people, who had little to nothing to do with its initial development. So there's no "institutional knowledge" on the software side. But it was cheaper, so shareholders got their quarterly dividends.
CAN Bus is extremely finicky to troubleshoot. Have weird sensor issues in your car? Probably CAN Bus problems. I helped spec one of my volunteer Fire Dept's newest apparatus. It had the option of being a hybrid of old school relay tech and some CAN Bus or being 100% CAN Bus. I went with as little CAN Bus as I could and I still have all sorts of dumb problems, especially if you don't boot or shut down the rig "properly". If one of my older guys, who isn't computer savvy drives the rig and isn't super careful with procedures, we'll get dumb ABS issues, airbag system sensor issues or even transmission issues where it won't shift into gear until you "reboot" the truck. Our newest rig, which is a borderline lemon, is 100% CAN Bus and its even worse. The County's Tech Rescue Team of which I'm a member also has an all new rig, which is also 100% CAN Bus, and we have all sorts of dumb sensor and software issues. For example, if you put it in drive, all of the back lights for the dashboard turn off, unless you turn off the headlights or put it in park. Dealer and manufacturer can't get it sorted, over a year later (dealer not only won't honor the warranty, they won't even answer the phone anymore because they want to wash their hands of the damn thing). A buddy of mine is the field service head for a major NYC tower crane company and he's constantly complaining about CAN Bus nightmares in their newest cranes.
It is only going to get worse as manufacturers care more about delivering a product as cheaply as possible to maximize their profits and end users get shafted, because there's limited to no other options. Who are any of these railroads going to go to for new, higher speed passenger locomotives? EMD and GE barely want to make new freight locos for the US market, let alone passenger locos. Bombardier screwed up everything they touched. Kawasaki is currently in trouble with numerous projects. CAF USA made a mess of Viewliner 2 project. Hyundai-Rotem screwed up, Alstom is having issues with the Acela replacements, so honestly, why should we expect any less of Siemens? Cars and trucks are honestly not much better. Boeing has almost put itself out of business with its software screw ups on numerous projects. Nearly every Lockheed and Northrop project I have friends at from college seems to have software nightmares too.
In the end, my daily motto is that "Technology is Terrible" and it's honestly up for debate if humans inventing technology was really all that great idea in greater scheme of things, or maybe we would have been better off staying in the trees of the African savanna.
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