Should (or could) Amtrak Contract out Certain Routes to Private Operators?

I have a more important question: Do Amtrak’s law and Agreements with unions permit this? Concurrently, will the unions lobby the administration to mandate contract coverage if Amtrak farms out routes?

John_Perkowski wrote:I have a more important question: Do Amtrak’s law and Agreements with unions permit this? Concurrently, will the unions lobby the administration to mandate contract coverage if Amtrak farms out routes?

If it wasn't permitted, the Hoosier State wouldn't have happened. The states don't have to contract with Amtrak for service. Amtrak probably can't subcontract.

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John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:38 pm What’s in it for Amtrak?

Amtrak gains nothing, this set of proposals is at their expense. For the governments funding these services, it’s possible but doubtful they’ll realize both savings and service improvements.

For foamers it’s great though

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:38 pm What’s in it for Amtrak?

Heck, what's in it for the patrons.
I know the arguments, but I'm not buying them.

Heck, I'll go further, peeling off individual routes such as those named (say Empire Service) only harms Amtrak more.
Private operators are only going to be interested in the routes more likely to be profitable. So as you take those away, it makes Amtrak's financial position even more precarious. Then a super majority of 535 in DC decide to cut their losses and we lose a national network.

No thanks.

contract out and we will see a repeat of what is happening in the UK.

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:16 pm
Private operators are only going to be interested in the routes more likely to be profitable.

Any route can be profitable to a private operator if they are paid a subsidy to run it. No route makes a profit , or is projected to be profitable.

The Hoosier State was operated by Amtrak with Amtrak workers, except for food staff. Even ticketing and marketing was done by Amtrak. Only the equipment (and maintenance?) was contracted to a private company.

You could have "Amtrak" trains that are actually privately operated, over the objection of freight hosts. Presumably state-sponsored routes.

There's one question that nobody is answering:

Where's the math?

Seriously. This is a constantly repeated argument. I've seen signs of it in this thread. So I'm going to raise the bar here.

• How much does it cost to run Amtrak services, per train and per run, from diesel and track slot costs to personnel and consumables (not just cafe stuff but the water used for flushing the toilets, engine cooling, etc).
• What could be contracted out for equal or cheaper for equivalent or better service.
• What personnel could be contracted out, so that when the conductors get that paycheck, they get at least $15/hour (the proposed minimum wage).

I doubt anyone can do this math, show the proof, and say "It can be done."

It can be done, but politically they just don't want the numbers to be known. For example, what is the cost of a Downeaster train vs an MBTA Keolis train? Or the operating cost of an Amtrak Springfield Shuttle vs a CTrail vs a Shore Line East vs a Metro-North CR?

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:18 am

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:38 pm What’s in it for Amtrak?

Amtrak gains nothing, this set of proposals is at their expense. For the governments funding these services, it’s possible but doubtful they’ll realize both savings and service improvements.

For foamers it’s great though

Extra foam, please. To clarify, and I thought I was fairly clear with the references, but maybe not: These are for STATE SUPPORTED TRAINS. Amtrak won't run these without state subsidies. So, if the state is to subsidize, why can't they give that subsidy to a private operator? I'm talking corridor trains; commuter operators, even if they have the crews, don't make sense. Doesn't METRA contract out to BNSF? MNRR is not going to be interested in running trains for someone else, CTDOT notwithstanding. That's a legacy operation from the takeover from Conrail, and operationally makes sense. Maybe Milwaukee, but why? They run COMMUTER TRAINS.

Amtrak provides crap service, especially on ALB-NYS Empire trains. Hell, CTRail provides crap service on crap trains, but it's a start, and it's a commuter service. Why not bid it out?

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:16 pm

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:38 pm What’s in it for Amtrak?

Heck, what's in it for the patrons.
I know the arguments, but I'm not buying them.

Heck, I'll go further, peeling off individual routes such as those named (say Empire Service) only harms Amtrak more.
Private operators are only going to be interested in the routes more likely to be profitable. So as you take those away, it makes Amtrak's financial position even more precarious. Then a super majority of 535 in DC decide to cut their losses and we lose a national network.

No thanks.

Again, this is not for Amtrak's benefit. If there are state subsidies, why shouldn't the state choose the operator?

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:57 pm Amtrak survived the Trump era without any calls to "privatize it". Joe certainly has a record of "Amtrak friendly", and as noted at the related topic, there is always hope that his down chain appointments to the FRA and within, the RPD will prove "friendlies".

To be fair, there’s two months left - and I predict a lot of fire sales. Amtrak can’t sleep easy yet.

BandA wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:12 am It can be done, but politically they just don't want the numbers to be known. For example, what is the cost of a Downeaster train vs an MBTA Keolis train? Or the operating cost of an Amtrak Springfield Shuttle vs a CTrail vs a Shore Line East vs a Metro-North CR?

There's also the question of cost of living where the train is based. Mr. O'Keefe has more than once pointed out that part of the math that makes the Downeaster work is that the crews are based out of Maine, and paid accordingly. They are Amtrak crews, but their pay scale based out of Portland/Brunswick is not the same as the NEC crews based out of Boston, and similar for maintenance crews. In other words, while some comparisons make sense, not everything si apples to apples, even with geographic similarities.

How does Amtrak determine pay rates / zones? By surveying freight railroads?

Maine cost of housing is dramatically lower than Greater Boston, perhaps 1/3. Maine income tax is higher than Massachusetts & progressive.