Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

In regards to number #6, I don't believe it was any unions that said we only want to work Monday through Friday. If anything the unions would want it 24/7. More employees working means more individuals collecting pay to put food on the table. My guess would be those hours are for the residents in the area to get some sense of normalcy at night and weekends without the sounds of heavy equipment moving around the neighborhood

Mudvalve wrote:In regards to number #6, I don't believe it was any unions that said we only want to work Monday through Friday. If anything the unions would want it 24/7. More employees working means more individuals collecting pay to put food on the table. My guess would be those hours are for the residents in the area to get some sense of normalcy at night and weekends without the sounds of heavy equipment moving around the neighborhood

Bingo. Most places have laws that non-emergency construction can only occur during certain hours (usually 7 am to 11 pm weekdays or similar) so nearby residents can get some sleep.

deathtopumpkins wrote:Bingo. Most places have laws that non-emergency construction can only occur during certain hours (usually 7 am to 11 pm weekdays or similar) so nearby residents can get some sleep.

And those laws were not meant to apply to construction taking place several hundred feet underground. If New York was able to do some of the construction of the Second Avenue Subway 24/7, there is no reason why they cannot do it here and cut the schedule by at least 15-20% (at least an year). As long as they are not blasting with dynamite, the depths are sufficient to make any vibration moot. Trucking of course should occur only during reasonable hours.

Even underground construction needs access shafts. 99.9% of construction cannot be done without any impacts above ground. I'm sure they could theoretically get a permit to do some limited activity at night, but I doubt they could do enough to cut a year off the schedule.

Note that my construction experience is limited to MA, and I am not familiar with NYC's specific laws.

Especially digging underneath the river in the middle of the night. I'm sure the clams won't mind.

EuroStar wrote:6 might be illustrative of union power -- why they cannot drill the tunnel 24/7 is beyond me. With multiple crews you would not need to pay anyone overtime(some people will work weekends and get days off during the week -- it happens in other industries all the time) and spoil removal and material trucking could still be only on weekdays. Aahh, the many ways to make this project incredibly expensive ... and to derail it ...

Most (actually all that I'm familiar with) union construction working agreements include shift differential for second or third shift and as such many workers prefer these shifts. Doubt the unions would be against the 24/7 schedule. As for the weekends-it is also in most agreements that work on the weekend is paid at the overtime rate, period. There is no provision for a Wednesday to Sunday or Thursday to Monday work week. The week is Monday to Friday, and I don't think you could convince them to change.

IIRC, 2nd Ave Subway had 24hr shifts underground, but space for accumulating the dirt so it could be batched and shipped only during daylight hours above ground.

troffey wrote:Most (actually all that I'm familiar with) union construction working agreements include shift differential for second or third shift and as such many workers prefer these shifts. Doubt the unions would be against the 24/7 schedule. As for the weekends-it is also in most agreements that work on the weekend is paid at the overtime rate, period. There is no provision for a Wednesday to Sunday or Thursday to Monday work week. The week is Monday to Friday, and I don't think you could convince them to change.

Thank you! At least someone is willing to be honest and acknowledge that it has a lot to do with the unions as opposed to the people living nearby. It is effectively a mechanism to extract overtime pay.

EuroStar wrote:

troffey wrote:Most (actually all that I'm familiar with) union construction working agreements include shift differential for second or third shift and as such many workers prefer these shifts. Doubt the unions would be against the 24/7 schedule. As for the weekends-it is also in most agreements that work on the weekend is paid at the overtime rate, period. There is no provision for a Wednesday to Sunday or Thursday to Monday work week. The week is Monday to Friday, and I don't think you could convince them to change.

Thank you! At least someone is willing to be honest and acknowledge that it has a lot to do with the unions as opposed to the people living nearby. It is effectively a mechanism to extract overtime pay.

Take a look at the recent article in the Times about why MTA construction costs are so high....

I honestly think that Amtrak should take one of the existing tubes out of service right away for repair. They need repair so we should do it now.

It would demonstrate the impact this has on the NY NJ area and also prepare us for a complete failure of both tubes. At leaast having one tube working at a time is better than none.

PS (and Everyone:)

In this case I do agree with you to a large extent...What it may take to get this project moving
forward is a calamity that would be caused by the severe limitation of only having a single track
to use into NYP. It would show how important that these two tracks under the Hudson - and the
just-as-old Portal Bridge - is to the NEC infrastructure and the entire region just for starters.

Unfortunately it may take no less then a complete tunnel shutdown and the resulting chaos that
it will cause to motivate some doubters how important that this project is to not only NY and NJ
but possibly for the entire nation if this indirectly results in future economic problems.

This should have never had to come down to this...MACTRAXX

Right now,Amtrak takes 1 North(Hudson)river tube OOS on weekends for patchwork/repairs/concrete replacement/Sandy damage control.
Believe both Mr Boardman and Moorman stated that both tubes need a complete replacement of the interior structures due to the Sandy damage.
Yet the current "critter" in the White House that maintains a Manhattan home address would rather fight the NY state based and NJ state based
Congress critters for an unwanted wall. Go figure.

Backshophoss wrote: Yet the current "critter" in the White House that maintains a Manhattan home address would rather fight the NY state based and NJ state based
Congress critters for an unwanted wall. Go figure.

And given the way DeBlassio, Cuomo, et all have acted since the election....can you blame him?

Backshophoss wrote:Right now,Amtrak takes 1 North(Hudson)river tube OOS on weekends for patchwork/repairs/concrete replacement/Sandy damage control.
Believe both Mr Boardman and Moorman stated that both tubes need a complete replacement of the interior structures due to the Sandy damage.
Yet the current "critter" in the White House that maintains a Manhattan home address would rather fight the NY state based and NJ state based
Congress critters for an unwanted wall. Go figure.

But the wall is not unwanted; many, many folks want it!
NY and NJ have to realize that all infrastructure projects must meet budgets and be affordable.

Let’s put some prospected on it. The projected costs for this tunnel alone is more expensive than 500 miles of HSR in France.
Per https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/201 ... uestioned/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But debt accumulated to build the lines has reached €29 billion for RFF and €9 billion for SNCF; new lines, at a cost of €16-27 million per kilometer, will increase those sums substantially. That’s 38 Billion euros ($47 Billion) for 1588 kilometers of HSR corridors (987 miles) by the end of 2011. So 500 miles would be around $23,9 Billion, less than the latest projected costs for the Gateway project, which has soared to over $29 Billion.
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... ct/532941/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While Americans may deem new tunnels under the Husdson River may be more important than a border wall, Americans also appreciate and expect value for money. What would you rather have, more than 500 miles of new HSR corridors or two new tunnels under the Hudson River to reach an already overcrowded Penn Station?

500 miles or even 5000 miles of high speed rail with no decent rail access to New York City and in particular mid town Manhattan just won't fly.
Whether or not the tunnel is the answer or possibly a bridge to connect with access tracks to both Grand Central and Penn Station that could be more flexible and cost effective.