Cascades 501 Wreck 18 December 17

I believe Elon Musk when he says robots will be able to do everything better in the future. Everything.

Humans are just too error prone.

Will a robot be able to recognize a trespasser on the track and tell the difference through pattern recognition from say a bird flying in front of the camera or even a piece of trash? Seems like there are way too many situations that can happen on a railroad to run it without a human present to make judgments. Look how hard it has been to get self driving cars to work reliably.

I'm an outsider to all of this, but my impression is that the track side speed signs are not meant to be the way that speed is determined on a railroad. The engineer should already know the speeds on the entire route, including any last minute changes, and should follow his/her documentation for the route, not rely on signage. In fact, some speed restrictions may not even appear on a sign, or may contradict a sign, but are still in force. The signs are just bonus confirmation.

http://signals.jovet.net/rules/BNSF%20S ... 0Rules.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Engineers of days gone by knew their railroad, backwards, forwards and sideways without the need for signage - those engineers have long since retired and/or died.

Today's engineers have been conditioned to expect signage, for both permanent and temporary speed restrictions as well as identifying Work Zones that have been designated on their train messages (once upon a time known as Train Orders). Additionally all orders stated for operations, such as slow orders, flagging crossings, and any other things the train needs to comply with are stated in Mileposts to the nearest 10th of a mile.

Your comments tend to indicate that you have never been near the operating controls at the lead of a 21st Century train of any variety to see what the head end crew (Conductor & Engineer on freight) Engineer only for the most part on passenger, have to deal with as they undertake their runs. A seconds inattention can lead to a missed landmark and thereby start the chain to catastrophe.

In the case of this incident, I am at a loss to explain why the head end crew NEVER activated the brakes and it was left to the breaking of the train line to initiate the emergency application.

A seconds inattention can lead to a missed landmark and thereby start the chain to catastrophe.

You can say this about many occupations and work situations. And it is not excused.

By the way the quote about signage in my reply was from a different member, I misused the quote function.

If something distracted the engineer in this case it hasn't been made public. Losing situational awareness because of radio chatter is unacceptable. Nothing was offered up in the Philadelphia accident except speculation. My point is that if you are easily distracted get a different career. An engineer's job is too important and a train is too dangerous.

If the training was inadequate then the railroad is partially to blame as well.

mtuandrew wrote:

frequentflyer wrote:Or let go of the Talgo experiment and just go Siemens low level like everyone else.

To be honest, it looks like the Talgos handled this crash well enough, and that they absorbed and redistributed the majority of the crash energy. It's difficult to claim that a conventional 85' car or a bilevel would have performed better and had fewer fatalities or injuries in this kind of wreck.

I am speaking to the fact that the Talgo equipment must be more expensive to maintain in comparison to other more plentiful options. Yes, Washington could buy the other one or two sets that are mothballed but parts for such a niche trainset must be expensive. Stands to reason that cars such as the Siemens low level coach would be cheaper to maintain.

If WasDot is ok with that, and are a favorite with the customers then by all means order more Talgo sets from Spain.

jonnhrr wrote:Will a robot be able to recognize a trespasser on the track and tell the difference through pattern recognition from say a bird flying in front of the camera or even a piece of trash? Seems like there are way too many situations that can happen on a railroad to run it without a human present to make judgments. Look how hard it has been to get self driving cars to work reliably.

The short answer is yes.

In the very near future IMO.

No amount of training is going to account for distraction, the person’s ability to remain focused in the seat is squre one. We don’t even have enough details yet to say whether it was distraction, medical event, or mechanical issue so it amazes me how many people are on here questioning certain items when we are still lacking key components to the investigation. Unless I’ve missed something I don’t believe a download from lead engine has been released along with other key elements like medical history, drug & alcohol, mechacnal reprort, interior/exterior footage....

and that is what is puzzling, we know more about sexual past of one of victims than what is released by NTSB .
in same time frame the crew of 188 and MN at spuyten duyvil were quartered keelhauled and convicted.
yet here we know nothing !! despite all electronics , non life threatening injuries and vague info given.

Makes you wonder what's not getting out...

Engineers from Tacoma Rail, the city’s short line freight railroad, provided pilot training to Amtrak engineers prior to Monday’s derailment that killed three people and injured dozens of others.

The training occurred over multiple days in February, said Chris Gleason, spokeswoman for Tacoma Public Utilities, which oversees the rail operation.
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The nature of the February training involved gaining familiarity with the route, using an Amtrak train, but it was not conducted at the higher speeds the passenger trains would use.

http://www.kiro7.com/news/south-sound-n ... /667141941" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I think it is safe to say that there was no simulator time, surely Amtrak is going to get jammed hard for this. What do these freight guys who used this route for years at 10-15 mph on roadbed that was completely torn out and replaced have to teach? Feb was a long long time ago. No simulator time, never once running this route at speed before loading up passengers.....this is straight up negligence folks....Wsdot, Sound Transit, Amtrak and maybe the FRA all failed us.

Railroads don’t use simulators to train/certify engineers on new routes, they are more so for new engineers to learn and get a feel for the controls and put them in different rules scenarios. You can’t learn feel from running a simulator nor can you truly learn a route without being out in the field.

Wasn't aware of this, but a Seattle TV station is reporting that until the PTC system is active (that is supposed to be around April) Amtrak will go back to operating on the old route.

The director of Washington State Department of Transportation told KIRO 7 the Amtrak Cascades run will not return to the Point Defiance Bypass until a Positive Train Control system is in place. “I think that’s our plan right now,” said WSDOT director Ron Pate. I think we would want to, and there’s commitments from Amtrak, to really pursue this heavily.” Link

Haven't been Tacoma in years but this accident occurred before sun rise. As well winter solstice just days away adding to pre dawn gloom. Also sometimes there is patchy fog although at that location and lead have no idea.

What about the Talgo tech ?