Cascades 501 Wreck 18 December 17

Nasadowsk wrote:Makes you wonder what's not getting out...

Well you gotta believe the NTSB has a pretty good idea what happened. Especially if both people who were on the head end have been interviewed.

Tommy Meehan wrote:Wasn't aware of this, but a Seattle TV station is reporting that until the PTC system is active (that is supposed to be around April) Amtrak will go back to operating on the old route.

The director of Washington State Department of Transportation told KIRO 7 the Amtrak Cascades run will not return to the Point Defiance Bypass until a Positive Train Control system is in place. “I think that’s our plan right now,” said WSDOT director Ron Pate. I think we would want to, and there’s commitments from Amtrak, to really pursue this heavily.” Link

That would make zero sense, the old route has no PTC either and has twice amount of traffic .

Come on Dutch would you expect them to use any good old common sense here????
Noel Weaver

There's an often quoted phrase "flew off the rails". In this case it's almost literal.

It IS quite amazing, the forces and such at work ... 13 cars left the track in front of it, and the trailing locomotive was able to coast to a stop without derailing.

STrRedWolf wrote:Did the other engine limp back?

No photos of it similarly loaded on a trailer ... one would presume the legalities of actually operating the unit would prevent that, so at a guess, I'd say it was a dead-in-tow removal. It sure did look undamaged, so presumably it was just coupled up and towed off.

deathtopumpkins wrote:

farecard wrote:http://www.kiro7.com/news/photos-massiv ... /666679669

Yikes. That looks worse than I thought.

On the surface sure doesn't look good ... but if the powerplant's ok, the electrics are ok, and the frame isn't bent, it's most certainly repairable. The rest is pennies cost-wise against those major components.

Bostontoallpoints wrote:https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... mbers-bay/


Just to throw this out there, Amtrak had a train derail in Chambers Bay just 6 months ago. The engineer was suspended for excessive speed and not following signals.

That train tested a split-rail derail. It worked flawlessly.

east point wrote:What about the Talgo tech ?

Good question.

jboutiet wrote: I'm an outsider to all of this, but my impression is that the track side speed signs are not meant to be the way that speed is determined on a railroad. The engineer should already know the speeds on the entire route, including any last minute changes, and should follow his/her documentation for the route, not rely on signage. In fact, some speed restrictions may not even appear on a sign, or may contradict a sign, but are still in force. The signs are just bonus confirmation.

In general, yes, a crew should have sufficient knowledge and training of their railroad that they should know the route, including elevation changes and speed restrictions.

Everything needed is published, and learned both via printed material (timetables) and actual on-route training and familiarization.

In the case of this route, even though it's a previously unused (by Amtrak) 13 mile section of track, it was accepted last January/February (following extensive rebuilding for use), and qualification/familiarization has been ongoing since then.

The signage is there as a supplemental reminder

scoostraw wrote: Well you gotta believe the NTSB has a pretty good idea what happened. Especially if both people who were on the head end have been interviewed.

The last we heard from the NTSB, they were still waiting on medical clearance to interview them.

litz wrote:On the surface sure doesn't look good ... but if the powerplant's ok, the electrics are ok, and the frame isn't bent, it's most certainly repairable. The rest is pennies cost-wise against those major components.

Wrong. The entire shell is the frame. Its most definitely destroyed. From the views ive seen of the photos this engine is in far worse shape than even the 188 wreck with 601. The whole engineers side cab corner crushed in. There is not a single thing that looks straight on that engine, and the prime mover looks to have top end damage.

The PTC for the Sounder commuter train operations,"working" date is June 2018 for cut-in,would include parts of the Seattle and Scenic Subs
used by Sounder trains along with the Lakeview Sub
Will the BNSF PTC on the rest of Seattle and Scenic Subs be cut in at that time?

glennk419 wrote:Warranty costs are typically factored into the cost of the product. If there are unused warranty dollars, which would be significant on an $11M locomotive, they could possibly be credited toward a new, replacement unit. The warranty clock also does not start until the owner officially accepts the unit. If the frame is straight on the Charger, it may not actually be a write off.

Some warranties work like that . But it would be negotiated right from the start. For e.g , some battery manufacturers calculate a warrant able failure rate of 5 % , and supply 105 batteries for every 100 brought. This is done to avoid having to return dangerous goods , an expensive exercise. But I can't see how they can transfer a so far unused warranty period into a new Locomotive, especially since the product was not at fault.

litz wrote:

scoostraw wrote: Well you gotta believe the NTSB has a pretty good idea what happened. Especially if both people who were on the head end have been interviewed.

The last we heard from the NTSB, they were still waiting on medical clearance to interview them.

And if I were in their shoes, I would get a GOOD lawyer as well. (considering that there may be a potential criminal case)

Bostontoallpoints :

Speed restriction signs are in place as a reminder to the engineer that the upcoming restriction must have the train at ___ speed. It is often placed prior to the curve but too close for a train operating at excessive speed to slow down and/or stop, but in some locations they are placed well in advanced although I rarely see it set up that way. Yes, the Engineer should already "know" ahead of time that they must slow down prior to reaching that curve. But if you haven't been in the cab of a locomotive or any other train, it would be hard to explain to somebody what the loss of situational awareness is and how easy it can occur. In fact it happens quite often on the road in cars and trucks as you see when you drive around in the form of car accidents. I gave the reasons behind why it is quite possible that this is what occurred and many different distractions there were that were present at the point of the accident. And like another person mentioned here, there was a time when Engineers knew their RR front and back, and there still are many of these guys out there. Issue is, this was not a route that was in that category, so there aren't any old timers on this branch since it was recently rebuilt and Amtrak was not operating on it before. Also, just because there has been training on this line since Jan/Feb, doesn't mean that everyone had multitudes of opportunities to ride the line. These Engineers are still on duty operating trains for a living. If time permits and schedules can be manipulated to cover for those who are training on the new route, they will be able to spend some time on the new route which was NOT operating revenue trains. That means that training trains were operated on an "as needed" basis and not on a regular schedule. So I highly doubt that Engineers and Conductors made numerous trips since Jan where it would be enough to make everybody feel comfy and confident to be speeding thru the line with little ease. Ask any train crew operating on a new line or on a line they rarely see, and ask them how comfy they feel? For me, my eyes would generally be glued to the front window with the timetable and rule book wide open.

I agree as well that very little information has been thrown out there about what occurred and how much coverage other accidents received and how little we know with this one. The MNR crash had the Engineer's name thrown out to the public in under 48hrs, and with train 188, we already knew what the Engineer did, what he ate, what his personal life was, etc.. what's different about this accident? Not that I want that to be the case. On the contrary, the train crews identity should never be given up regardless of what occurred. Accidents happen, and that's why the NTSB investigates. But nowadays we just crucify people without knowing anything. What if the brakes failed? what if he had a seizure? what if an Alien abducted him? You can come up with probably over 50 reasons as to why this happened, and still not know what happened, but still make the engineer a villain. guilty until proven innocent. Its just very odd that much of what is considered normal behavior by the media has yet to surface. And you know that your looney bin conspiracy nuts are having a field day with this right now. One guy I work with already seems baffled how the tracks are intact and how the train "flew off" the tracks. But, indeed, that's what it did. When you barrel down a track doing 80mph at a35mph curve with all that weight going downhill, you fly! I still think that the rear locomotive was either pushing. But it might have been on idle too, but either way, the weight of the engine combined with momentum or traction pushed the remaining part of the train off that bridge. It almost looks like the other half of the train actually negotiated the curve after it broke apart and derailed right at the beginning of the trestle. Also, computers are only as good as the ones who make them. While they continue to perfect them, there is no perfect in the world. in fact, I would bet money that there will be just as many accidents even when PTC will be up and running. What will they say then?