All things Pennsylvanian AND Keystone West

Site Admin Note: I did some topic consolidation of some older topics, including two titled "All things Pennsylvanian". Gives some interesting progression.

(More) talk of a second frequency: ABC 27

PennDOT asks about adding 2nd Harrisburg-Pittsburgh train

PITTSBURGH (AP) – The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation has asked Amtrak about adding a second daily round-trip train between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.

PennDOT project manager Jennie Granger tells the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (http://bit.ly/1Ljyma4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) that Amtrak is looking into what it would take to make an additional round-trip each day for the Amtrak Pennsylvanian.

TribLive

Jennie Granger, project manager for PennDOT's state rail plan, said Amtrak is looking into what it would take to make an additional round-trip each day. The next step is checking with Norfolk Southern, which owns the line, to see whether time and space allow for a new passenger trip among frequent freight routes.

“With our existing funding, we can't afford billions of dollars of improvements, but we might be able to afford this,” Granger said. “Part of it is the negotiations with Amtrak and Norfolk Southern, and part of it is seeing what that subsidy is and gaining that support and maximizing the available dollars.”

The Pennsylvanian is one of 29 short-distance Amtrak lines receiving state funding when passenger revenue doesn't cover the costs, a setup that in 2012 almost caused the line to disappear when federal regulations began requiring state subsidies on short-distance trips. In the 2014-2015 fiscal year, PennDOT paid Amtrak $14.5 million for the cross-state Pennsylvanian and the Keystone Service from Harrisburg to Philadelphia.

Amtrak data show about 149,000 people boarded and departed trains in Pittsburgh in 2014. Spokesman Craig Schulz said even if there's a new train and Norfolk Southern can work it into the schedule, PennDOT must decide whether to add service, because it must subsidize costs that exceed revenues.

“It's a popular route,” Schulz said. “If there's an opportunity to provide more service to Pittsburgh, we're always willing and able to look at that.”

In 2011, the state's Keystone West High Speed Rail study found new infrastructure to increase speed and capacity on the mountainous 250-mile route would cost $1.5 billion to $38 billion. But that didn't stop the calls for additional service along the existing tracks.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvanian_(train" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

How punctual has the eastbound Pennsylvanian's performance been recently?

In a few days I'm meeting family detraining at PHL who transferred to #42 from #30 in PGH. I'm cautiously optimistic that west of HBG, NS is a help and not a hindrance. Thanks in advance for any help.

Fairly timely in PHL according to here:

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archiv ... istory.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You didn't mention what day of the week, but it looks very consistent to me.

Origin Date Sch AR Act AR Comments Service Disruption Cancellations

09/20/2015 (Su) 09/20/2015 2:55 PM (Su) 2:55PM Arr: On time. | Dep: 2 min late.
09/19/2015 (Sa) 09/19/2015 2:55 PM (Sa) 2:57PM Arr: 2 min late. | Dep: 2 min late.
09/18/2015 (Fr) 09/18/2015 2:55 PM (Fr) 2:57PM Arr: 2 min late. | Dep: 11 min late.
09/17/2015 (Th) 09/17/2015 2:55 PM (Th) 2:55PM Arr: On time. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/16/2015 (We) 09/16/2015 2:55 PM (We) 2:48PM Arr: 7 min early. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/15/2015 (Tu) 09/15/2015 2:55 PM (Tu) 2:48PM Arr: 7 min early. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/14/2015 (Mo) 09/14/2015 2:55 PM (Mo) 2:50PM Arr: 5 min early. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/13/2015 (Su) 09/13/2015 2:55 PM (Su) 3:26PM Arr: 31 min late. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/12/2015 (Sa) 09/12/2015 2:55 PM (Sa) 2:56PM Arr: 1 min late. | Dep: On time.
09/11/2015 (Fr) 09/11/2015 2:55 PM (Fr) 2:52PM Arr: 3 min early. | Dep: On time.
09/10/2015 (Th) 09/10/2015 2:55 PM (Th) 2:50PM Arr: 5 min early. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/09/2015 (We) 09/09/2015 2:55 PM (We) 2:53PM Arr: 2 min early. | Dep: 3 min late.
09/08/2015 (Tu) 09/08/2015 2:55 PM (Tu) 3:55PM Arr: 1 hr late. | Dep: 30 min late.
09/07/2015 (Mo) 09/07/2015 2:55 PM (Mo) 2:51PM Arr: 4 min early. | Dep: 1 min late.
09/06/2015 (Su) 09/06/2015 2:55 PM (Su) 3:07PM Arr: 12 min late. | Dep: 2 min late.
09/05/2015 (Sa) 09/05/2015 2:55 PM (Sa) 2:54PM Arr: 1 min early. | Dep: 9 min late.
09/04/2015 (Fr) 09/04/2015 2:55 PM (Fr) 2:53PM Arr: 2 min early. | Dep: On time.
09/03/2015 (Th) 09/03/2015 2:55 PM (Th) 2:58PM Arr: 3 min late.
09/02/2015 (We) 09/02/2015 2:55 PM (We) 2:49PM Arr: 6 min early.
09/01/2015 (Tu) 09/01/2015 2:55 PM (Tu) 3:37PM Arr: 42 min late. | Dep: 39 min late.
08/31/2015 (Mo) 08/31/2015 2:55 PM (Mo) 2:51PM Arr: 4 min early. | Dep: 4 min late.
08/30/2015 (Su) 08/30/2015 2:55 PM (Su) 2:53PM Arr: 2 min early.
08/29/2015 (Sa) 08/29/2015 2:55 PM (Sa) 2:54PM Arr: 1 min early. | Dep: On time.
08/28/2015 (Fr) 08/28/2015 2:55 PM (Fr) 2:55PM Arr: On time. | Dep: On time.
08/27/2015 (Th) 08/27/2015 2:55 PM (Th) 3:02PM Arr: 7 min late. | Dep: 4 min late.
08/26/2015 (We) 08/26/2015 2:55 PM (We) 2:55PM Arr: On time. | Dep: 1 min late.
08/25/2015 (Tu) 08/25/2015 2:55 PM (Tu) 3:13PM Arr: 18 min late. | Dep: 15 min late.
08/24/2015 (Mo) 08/24/2015 2:55 PM (Mo) 2:56PM Arr: 1 min late.
08/23/2015 (Su) 08/23/2015 2:55 PM (Su) 2:50PM Arr: 5 min early. | Dep: On time.
08/22/2015 (Sa) 08/22/2015 2:55 PM (Sa) 2:51PM Arr: 4 min early. | Dep: On time.
Average AR delay: 4 minutes late
Median AR delay: 1 minute early

There's a fair amount of "recovery time" in 42's schedule, most of it between Lewistown and Harrisburg (according to the last schedule I have, 1 hr 10' westbound vs. 1 hr 34' eastbound). I've been on it sometimes when it was almost an hour late at Lewistown and still arrived Harrisburg almost on time. (So if it's reported less than an hour late out of Lewistown things aren't as bad as they seem; check again after it leaves Harrisburg.)

And the train status portion of the Amtrak app is fairly good too, especially on LD's.

Thank you, Jeff Smith and ExCon90! Your help was very informative indeed.

On adding a second back/forth train from NY to Pittsburgh, or even a very-short-haul train from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, would actually be nice. Why? Let me explain.

I actually took the Pensylvanian from 30th Street Philly to Pittsburgh for Anthrocon this year. Even without an Amtrak discount, it was cheaper than flying Southwest by $100 ($50 from actual fare plus $50 for a Supershuttle, or plus $5 if you did the Port Authority 28X bus). The train by itself between Philly and Pittsburgh is an 8 hour trip, but it drops you a decent walkable distance from the main convention center hotel. Going up Thursday wasn't too bad (I even slept a bit due to a very late night software deployment). Going back Monday it was packed!

But I did notice two things. The crew changed in Harrisburg, and my guess is that they overnighted in Pittsburgh (assuming an 8 hour max time limit for train crews per FRA regulations).

A bit of map checking via Wikimapia, there's a second parking track that can be used.

Looking at the schedules at Pittsburgh:

• Capitol Limited DC Bound: Arrive from Chicago 5:05A leave 5:20A, arrive DC 1:05P
• Pennsylvanian NY Bound: leave 7:30A, arrive Harrisburg 12:55P, leave 1:05P, arrive Philly 2:55P, leave 3:25P, arrive NY 4:50p.
• Pennsylvanian Pittsburg bound: leave NY 10:52A, arrive Philly 12:12P, leave 12:42P, arrive Harrisburg 2:26P, leave 2:36p, arrive Pittsburg by 8:05P.
• Capitol Limited Pittsburg bound: leave DC 4:05P, arrive Pittsburgh 11:48P.

There's a gap between 7:30am and 8:05pm. Can we shove another train there (assuming NS can let us)?

Just for fun, lets try scheduling it. Lets aim for the second train to arrive around 10am and leave at around 2pm, assuming 4 hours to restock and swap crews. Lets keep this train short, between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, because there's storage for it (7 tracks at Harrisburg). For fun, it can double as an extra Keystone train, but we should just have folks transfer to the train from a Keystone (giving them 30 minutes).

The earliest train from Harrisburg is 7:15A. That means the train comes into Pittsburg at 1:15P. No can do. The 6 hour travel time between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh is killing us. If we want the train to go earlier without laying down any new track, it has to be an overnight train, and you might as well originate it from DC... and you then get into an argument as to run it as a Pennsylvanian or Capitol (very) Limited.

I've pushed for an overnight Pittsburgher before, and had my own reason to make a trip to Pittsburgh recently (the Abaddon XM Anomaly) that would have been much more civilized with the option to take a train at convenient hours. Since Pittsburgh is <750 miles from the East Coast, PRIIA 2008 applies, and the Commonwealth is not going to fund a train to DC when the option exists to go to Philadelphia and, incidentally to politicians but not the bottom line, New York. Eastbound, you can even repurpose the Penn Station slot of 640, for a magnificent arrival time of 8:40, with plenty of slop in the schedule between Lewistown and Harrisburg to make sure it hits that slot. Westbound, PSNY slots are not scarce at the relevant hour.

The current Pennsylvanian is diesel west of PHL, is it not? So another P42 or whatever would have to be available there to take the consist west, unless Amtrak reversed themselves on doing engine changes at HBG (and in any event another diesel would be needed there anyway, just with shorter run time in each direction)

CComMack: I don't think PRIIA/750 miles matters here? I thought the received wisdom was that existing LD routes would be grandfathered but that Congress would have to okay any more?

One thing I've noticed with the Pennsylvanian is that on the handful (6 or so) times I've ridden it, the padding westbound into PGH and eastbound into HAR/PHL is absolutely necessary...despite not encountering obvious holds or delays on NS territory, it always seems to lose some time.

The Pennsylvanian operates with a diesel west of PHL and there are good reasons for it-time and direction. Since the train reverses at Philadelphia's 30th St and has a long dwell there, they use the time to swap power. Amtrak and the State of Pennsylvania want to work out an agreement to run a second Pennsylvanian which would be nice.

STrRedWolf wrote:...
The earliest train from Harrisburg is 7:15A. That means the train comes into Pittsburg at 1:15P. No can do. The 6 hour travel time between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh is killing us. If we want the train to go earlier without laying down any new track, it has to be an overnight train, and you might as well originate it from DC... and you then get into an argument as to run it as a Pennsylvanian or Capitol (very) Limited.

Why originate from DC? I'm curious of your rationale for having a jawbone-shaped route WAS-PHL-PGH, rather than NYP-PHL-PGH with connections PHL-WAS. The only reasons I can imagine are a) it avoids the NYP tunnel boondoggle and b) it avoids reversing at PHL, but that means it loses the huge New York and points east crowd for a much smaller crowd from Washington.

I think there'd be a market for a PHL-WAS-PGH train though, if CSX is willing to play ball, or a diesel-only PHL-PGH train on NS.

It will not be an overnight train. Not only is demand lower for overnight trains without sleepers it would be useless to most of the state. I'd look at a train running closer to the pennsylvanians original schedule which ran opposite the current train

Suburban Station wrote:It will not be an overnight train. Not only is demand lower for overnight trains without sleepers it would be useless to most of the state. I'd look at a train running closer to the pennsylvanians original schedule which ran opposite the current train

Consider this a vote for a new Broadway Limited (40/41) to act as the cleanup train from NYP to CHI and as a mid-day Midwest/wake up in Manhattan train from CHI to NYP. A proposed schedule follows:

Suburban Station wrote:It will not be an overnight train. Not only is demand lower for overnight trains without sleepers it would be useless to most of the state. I'd look at a train running closer to the pennsylvanians original schedule which ran opposite the current train

But given the run time, having the entire run be at a "reasonable" hour isn't possible. The current 7:30a Pittsburgh departure can't really be made earlier. Add a second one in the evening, say at 6pm, and you've got yourself a post-1AM arrival in NYP.

Going the other way, I guess you could have the westbound leave earlier, but any departure from NYP post-2pm would get you into Pittsburgh after midnight.