Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

I wouldn't say it is all for PA. There are most certainly people who commute from Sussex/Warren counties to NYC.
But agreed. Mostly for PA.

Jeff Smith wrote:So if you're in the PA legislature, you just do a bit of horse-trading. Funding for a second Pennsylvanian frequency (name it "Three Rivers") and this run by NJT.

Website: http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet. ... oject019To" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like that. However, NJ legislators still need to horse-trade with south Jersey legislators, which sees little to no benefit from either Gateway or the Cutoff. For that, I'm thinking Camden - Glassboro commuter rail, a promised extension to Vineland, and a less-definite future extension (rebuilding the Millville Branch) to Cape May.

kilroy wrote:

Once the rails on the New Jersey side exist there will be some sort of arrangement for Pennsylvanians to use them.

I don't see that happening anytime in the next 10+ years. If NJ is going to come up with big bucks for rail improvements, it's going to the Gateway Tunnel project. I don't see NJ residents being real happy putting up with higher taxes/fees to make life better for PA residents. The attitude will be: "if you want it, you pay for it."

NJTransit isn't going to let them use it for free. More people using it means the less it costs per passenger.

JoeG wrote:I wonder if NJ and PA officials are talking about this project these days.unless there is some kind of bi state agreement I can't imagine the Feds would sign on.

Joe there is a bi-state plan at any rate (and a detailed one) that has been linked to in this thread several times. The agreement sounds like the service would be operated similar to how NJ Transit operates Metro-North service between Suffern NY and Port Jervis. Pennsy would have to contribute equipment, fund their part of the line and a pro-rated part of the overall cost. NJ Transit crews would operate the trains, which would would operate to Hoboken with scheduled connections to Midtown Direct. I've seen recent comments from NJ Transit spokespersons that essentially the ball is now in Pennsylvania's court.

The startup costs won't be small. Pennsylvania would have to acquire locomotives and coaches. They would have to upgrade their part of the line for passenger service -- in addition to trackwork probably put in some sidings and upgrade the signal system -- build a maintenance base and storage yard in Scranton and build intermediate stations.

From articles I've seen in Pennsylvania newspapers, I think one of the major issues with the state legislature is who will pay to operate the service once it's up and running. Like all commuter lines this one will require an ongoing cash subsidy. Legislators have indicated they'd like to see the local counties provide the operating subsidy. The problem is the counties don't have funding available.

The reality is, Pennsylvania is not New Jersey or Connecticut or New York. Establishing a regional rail passenger line is a lot tougher sell in Pennsylvania. It won't happen overnight but as long as people in Pennsylvania keep working to find a way to do it I think there is a decent chance it will happen. Yes it is taking a long time only look at the Gateway project. This project has much wider support than restoring the Cutoff -- almost no one is against it -- and yet it is taking a long time to get it funded. That's the nature of these projects; once built they will be around for decades, the powers-that-be only get one shot at doing them right. Getting them built requires a lot of people coming together and agreeing on a plan.

Tommy, I know there is a long-standing bistate plan. My comment that you quoted was meant to ask if that long-standing plan is still applicable. I certainly can't see the Christie administration spending any money on the cutoff past Andover. I'm surprised they are even proceeding with the Andover work. And its clear that the Gateway project has to proceed. Hopefully the Feds will pay most of that, but NJ will probably have to pay something. Will there be any funding available for other railroad projects?
Last I looked, Warren County wasn't interested in the Cutoff. If that's still true, then NJ would look at service west of Andover as being mostly for PA's benefit. In these tough times, where most people still have not recovered to pre-2008 levels, it is hard to see either state paying the (constantly increasing) bill for the Poconos-NJ service.

any work beyond Andover should be paid for by Pennsylvania, as that would only benefit PA service .

A number of factors work against the cut off restoration and Scranton service. The first factor is the NJ State legislature has zero interest in any heavy rail projects and have been in that frame of mind for years. That place is loaded with sharpshooter lawyers and real estate sharks and primarily concerned with networking and enriching themselves with some exceptions. Then the funding issue rears it's head so there is no money because the state is broke. Next from a logistical approach lets say it does get built and becomes wildly successful. The four wheelers on I-80, running the daily Pocono 500, figure out they can ride to north jersey and intermediate stops and ride on a regular basis. The Martz bus riders decide to try the new service and stick with it you may have 3-4000 riders a day from the start. The new problem is when they get to Newark or Hoboken where do they put them as the NY trains are packed and the PATH is at capacity and forget about a 45 on the head end and going to NYP. Maybe NJT can horse Amtrak into one train in the morning and evening and that's if the tunnels don't crap out. I believe Terminal dispatcher in Hoboken handles over 200 moves between 7 am and 9 am weekdays so terminating, yarding or turning Scranton trains will most certainly be a headache. My two cents......

We need a real national rail network, and a real national rail network service provider. This project should not be 100% on NJ and/or PA taxpayers. This is an inter-city project that connects Northeast PA with Northern NJ, New York City, and the rest of the national and regional rail networks. There are probably many more examples of service that could be enhanced or created if it were done with a national transportation focus instead of relying on regional and urban transportation agencies to fill in the lack of a real national system.

Ironically, a strong regional and urban rail network would enhance a national rail network, creating the connections needed to make rail transport convenient (compared to automobile or plane travel). So, NJT's focus should be on making the best regional network it can, enhancing and expanding service in underserved areas like Central and South Jersey. Anything more than that, like a train to the Poconos, should become the responsibility of a national rail service.

And therein lies the problem. Current political might is behind the automobile and plane travel. But, both of those forms of travel are unsustainable in the long run. Planes are limited by the size of the airport, and the number of gates available in the airport. There is little room to expand at most major hubs, and the cost of plane travel will continue to rise as demand continues to outstrip supply. People will retreat to their trusty automobile, which is also unsustainable long term. A 13 hour trip from New Jersey to Michigan seems doable, but when traffic increases in the long term, and highways are not able to be expanded to meet the demand, that 13 hour trip will turn into 17+ hours. Now you're talking about a hotel room for the night, on top of the gas, car wear/tear and additional time cost.

Eventually, the public will see how short sighted our politicians are. It may take a decade or two, but I believe that within a millennial's lifetime, we will see shovels in ground to make a more robust national rail network, including real high speed rail.

So, don't fret about the Lackawanna Cutoff. It will be put into use, eventually. Plane and car travel are not sustainable in the long term, and the public will demand a better transportation option.

I hear what all of you are saying, and you're all making valid points. I have to agree though that getting service west of Andover will be difficult. The government in this case will probably not take the "Field of Dreams" approach, that is, "if you build it, they will come." To get service west of Andover, PA and NJ would likely need a sizeable market first to justify it. Sadly, I don't think it really is there at this time. Right now, the stance is "if they come, we will build it."

They, by the way, refers to passengers. NJ recognizes the need for this rail corridor to help out the Route 80 corridor, but I don't think PA is quite on board considering their lack of action.

The only way I would consider moving to points between say, Andover and Stroudsburg would be if there was already rail service available. I guess if more people felt like me, they'd have to build it if they wanted people to live in their towns! But apparently most Americans don't demand rail service, so it has to hit critical mass before anything happens, which probably means total gridlock before rail ever gets considered.

This article about restoration of rail service on the Lackawanna Cutoff was just posted on nj.com:

http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/201 ... cart_river" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Admin note: fair-use quote added:

When will rail service extend into Sussex County?

The Lackawanna cutoff project would restore 7.3 miles of track between the Port Morris rail yards and Andover Township. That will connect to NJ Transit's Morris & Essex lines at Port Morris. The first 4.25 miles of track have been installed on the former Lackawanna Cutoff, as part of the first part of the project.

Q: When will NJTransit start construction of the Andover train station? It was waiting on a DEP permit the last we heard

A: The process leading to station construction and rebuilding will go out for contractors to bid on it by the end of the year, said Nancy Snyder, an NJ Transit spokeswoman.

"NJ Transit anticipates full design of the station will be finalized in December with a request for bids for reconstruction of the nearby Roseville Tunnel also going out by the end of the year," she said.

A public meeting is scheduled at The Inn in Pocono Manor next month (Oct. 13th) in which advocates will make the case for restoration of rail passenger service between Scranton, the Pocono region and NJ Transit (Hoboken). Attending will be Leslie Richards from Penn DOT and Therese McMillan an administrator from the Federal Transit Administration. Congressman Matt Cartwright will be there as well as a representative from the Pennsylvania Governor's office. "Local business leaders, local and state elected leaders, and local commuter rail advocates" will give presentations on the importance and potential of bringing commuter rail to northeastern Pennsylvania and connecting northern New Jersey and the Northeast Corridor with the Poconos and Scranton.

Here is a link to a local news story from TV station WBRC-13 in northeast Pennsylvania. The link is to a news roundup so you have to scroll down. The story appeared Wednesday Sept. 9th.

"We will have rail service reestablished on the first seven miles and that's from Port Marsh New Jersey to Andover. The funding we need now is to get it up from Andover into Monroe County."

Ouch. I will give him benefit of the doubt for that goof, but man, that just sounds off.

Anyway, it's fun to dream, but we're still going to be stuck with this 7.3 mile spur to nowhere that basically serves as a glorified Carlton Hill post-4/2/63. I would've loved if the MOS went to Blairstown, but that's not happening either.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz We need a "sleeping" smiley.

And still more meetings. Good turnout, though. Good to see my congressman.

http://m.poconorecord.com/article/20151 ... /151019762" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;