Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

That same pocono record had train service running in two years, in article 30 years ago, real estate lawyers sold houses in Poconos with article in hand.

JoeG wrote:There was a hope that Steamtown would help revitalize Scranton.It has been poorly run, has done much less restoration than I had hoped for, and does not utilize volunteers well. It really needs an activist, motivated director, not just an NPS bureaucrat building up pension credits.

That is an understatement. Right now they have ZERO running steam locomotives. Darn shame and truly A LOT of wasted $$$ there someplace.

Actually I think the "MALL" at Steamtown was the item that was professed to re-gentrify downtown Scranton. Although the NPS' Steamtown park would be part of that, the mall was supposed to be the draw. But whom would have forecasted that the 'mall' concept in retail is currently deader than a door nail. Everyone wants to pull right up to the front door of the store they want to shop in. Can't do that in a downtown, or at a mall. But those new, large format and large footprint retail shops are thriving out nearer the interstates. Its a damn shame.

Not too long after Conrail started in 1976 I went to the former EL side in Dover. We were still running the NJDOT U boats to Scranton for periodic maintenance. I occasionally worked UN tower in Port Morris and gave one or two of them the railroad over the Cutoff to East Stroudsburg, (where, if I remember correctly, the next tower was.) We had a little CTC machine for Greendell in UN. Even that early there was lively talk of restoring passenger service to Scranton.

JoeG wrote:There was a hope that Steamtown would help revitalize Scranton.It has been poorly run, has done much less restoration than I had hoped for, and does not utilize volunteers well. It really needs an activist, motivated director, not just an NPS bureaucrat building up pension credits.

I can't speak to that particular site manager, but being in the museum field myself, it's a giant pain in the butt to a) develop a museum with a budget that hardly includes anything but maintenance, b) develop interest in a site that's been open for a long time, c) seek approval from the NPS higher-ups for a new program that totally refreshes a site's programming, and d) find the funding for a specialist subject like steam engines and the history of railroading.

That said, I have ideas, and institutions like the National Endowment for the Humanities have grants available. It sounds like Steamtown needs a dedicated staffer.

cjvrr wrote: Everyone wants to pull right up to the front door of the store they want to shop in. Can't do that in a downtown, or at a mall. But those new, large format and large footprint retail shops are thriving out nearer the interstates. Its a damn shame.

Things aren't so grim. That model only works for your big box types of stores, and typically is only still thriving in states(areas) with vast stretches of low population density like PA and OH. Anything outside of Big Box Home Depot-type stuff, people are starting to trek back to downtowns or at least the fairly new concept of the fake downtown.
See:
Woodlands Town Center http://www.martycowham.com/images/galle ... Street.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
New Town Williamsburg http://www.premierwilliamsburgrealestat ... untain.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Shops at Nanuet http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/Image ... -Oct13.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The next generation of earners (18-35) in this country is shying away from private automobiles at rates that are making Detroit quiver. Downtowns will have their days again soon. Just need to sweeten the deal with something other than a bus.

Hey, New Town is just down the road from me! Admittedly, that helped lure me to that side of town when I moved to Williamsburg and I know that spot quite well!

http://www.njherald.com/article/2015120 ... /312079987

Now looking at 2018 just for Andover. I'm all for preserving wetlands and all, but aren't these man-made wetlands? Meaning if the tracks had been used all of these years, these wetlands never would have appeared.

What are Indiana bats doing in Jersey anyway? And WTF is Trout Management Class 1?

This is playing out like a bad PC comedy.

For decades, the NJDEP has treated wetlands regulation without regard to whether or not the wetlands were natural or resultant from human activity. The requirement for creation of new wetlands at a higher percentage than those to be lost, as an offset, is typically how developers proceed. The NJ part of the Sierra Club has been and continues to be vehemently opposed to the Cutoff Project and undoubtedly is holding the NJDEP's feet to the fire to ensure that DEP does not deviate from its regulations.

A Class 1 trout stream is the highest quality in the scale, often defined as: Class 1

High quality trout waters that have sufficient natural reproduction to sustain populations of wild trout, at or near carry capacity. Consequently, streams in this category require no stocking of hatchery trout. These streams or stream sections are often small and may contain small or slow-growing trout, especially in the headwaters.

I'd have to think that global warming provides a greater risk to native NJ wild trout than reconstruction of an existing rail right of way. The railroad could help to slow global warming by removing some daily super commuters and Pocono weekend traffic from Rt. 80.

time wrote:I'd have to think that global warming provides a greater risk to native NJ wild trout than reconstruction of an existing rail right of way. The railroad could help to slow global warming by removing some daily super commuters and Pocono weekend traffic from Rt. 80.

every time the wetlands there are brought up i think the same thing.

Ken W2KB wrote:For decades, the NJDEP has treated wetlands regulation without regard to whether or not the wetlands were natural or resultant from human activity. The requirement for creation of new wetlands at a higher percentage than those to be lost, as an offset, is typically how developers proceed. The NJ part of the Sierra Club has been and continues to be vehemently opposed to the Cutoff Project and undoubtedly is holding the NJDEP's feet to the fire to ensure that DEP does not deviate from its regulations.

Don't even START with "Wetlands"!!!!! I had a home in Holmdel, NJ some years ago. My Septic Tank collapsed, and I needed to replace it. The rest of the system was intact (the drain field). I had a stream bed down the hill from where the septic field was located. This stream bed had water in it only ONCE during the 10 years that I lived there, and that was when we had torrential rains after a heavy snowfall. When the DEP came to approve the new tank installation, it was found out that the existing field was ONE FOOT too close to these "Wetlands" and that I would have to move my entire septic system to the front yard. [SOAPBOX MODE ON] The NJDEP is just a bunch of TREE HUGGING WHACK-O's in my humble opinion!!! [SOAPBOX MODE OFF]

Ken W2KB wrote:
High quality trout waters that have sufficient natural reproduction to sustain populations of wild trout,

I've owned a home in the Pennsylvania Dutch farm country since 1955. They occasionally oil the roads here. We have creek that used to be well stocked with fish, I'm told, but doesn't have any now. One time the truck that was oiling the road got oil in the creek and killed the fish, I understand.

I recently took the train from Port Jervis to Hoboken, and couldn't help but think how similar these two lines are in the type of passenger travel (Lackawanna Cutoff vs. Port Jervis Line). Pure anecdotal evidence shows that many passengers are traveling further than to a work center as a commuter; many passengers had large suitcases and some were talking about connections with Amtrak and asking how to to get to the airport from Secaucus. This did't necessarily surprise me, but it validates that after a certain distance from a work center, public transit's focus should move from primarily commuter travel to interstate travel, especially during off peak periods.

I believe that Amtrak would be better suited to run these routes that are not primarily commuter routes, like west to Scranton/Binghamton. With that option not happening anytime soon, what if a private railroad were allowed (and there has been discussion to this effect for current Amtrak routes) to run routes better suited to Amtrak? So, for example, instead of the huge pipe dream of NJT providing service to Scranton, the Morristown & Erie provides service from Binghamton to Stroudsburg? Even if it were just three round trips a day - starting in Binghamton, or Scranton, and ending in Stroudsburg. Switch at Stroudsburg for Hoboken service, and then again at Dover or Summit for Midtown Direct. OR, allow the Morristown & Erie to run express to Hoboken after Stroudsburg (increases the M&E's cost, but would likely get more people to take the service by greatly reducing travel times to New York metro). They could use the lightly traveled Montclair-Boonton line to get around NJT M&E line congestion at peak times.

Pipe dreams, I know. But Morristown & Erie (or another private) could make this service really, really nice with different class levels. One for the Pocono weekender, think dining/bar car and really nice seats, and another class for the "just get me there" crowd.

All this doesn't help unless the line is built. But, I think by adding value to the line by extending it's purpose past just a small contingency of New Jersey and Pocono super commuters, it could help move funding at the federal level. Morristown & Erie's service would complement NJT's service, which I envision ending with a NJT station and yard in Stroudsburg.

Just imagine this ad:
Phoebe Snow returns! Get a weekend away from the big city and travel in style. Enjoy express service to the Poconos and beyond. The resorts will pick you up at the station, and zip cars are available if you'd like to explore further. Prices start at just $50 round-trip from Stroudsburg to Hoboken. Dinner options and cash bar are also available. Upgrade to a first-class seat for just $30 more! (I'd imagine a Binghamton to Hoboken trip should be priced around $120 round trip, to be competitive with bus travel).

You could increase patronage by striking deals with the resorts to package transportation into an all-in-one deal, and they would help market the service for you.

Fire away at my dream...

There's no reason I can think of why the two types of service couldn't coexist. But I doubt a private company would be able to finance reopening the line. The startup costs will probably be in the billion dollar range (the 2006 estimate was close to $600 million). There might also be some issues getting the necessary okays to allow private carrier crews to operate on NJ Transit lines. But there's no reason a private carrier couldn't sponsor weekend trains to the Poconos. With the operating crew made up of NJ Transit people with equipment provided by and the service crew employed by the sponsor.

By the way, it's a common misspelling but it's 'Binghamton' with no 'p.'