• Oil train disaster in Lac-Mégantic, Québec 07-06-2013

  • Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).
Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).

Moderator: MEC407

  by charlie6017
 
KEN PATRICK wrote:m white: i believe i'm correct in stating that the de-coupling of the power from the consist would have activated the emergency portion of the brake valves on each car. since this was a long consist, the application would have taken some time to reach the 73rd car. i think this is supported by the decreasing pile-up of the cars. what i find hard to believe is that the 'crew' pulled the rearmost cars with a trackmobile. to do that would have required dumping the air in each car to be pulled. did he undertake this time-consuming process as a failed effort to assert responsibility? it would have no practical effect on the outcome .
as for the posts opining that he did nothing wrong? impossible to correlate with the facts. to me, he did everything wrong. starting with his decision to quit early, leave a smoking engine as the sole air supply and park on a hill for starters. criminal? 'reckless endangerment' ? i don't think 'equipment malfunction' can cover up his actions. ken patrick
Ken,

You're a CPA, and not a railroader.

Stop it.

Charlie
  by sandyriverman
 
KEN PATRICK wrote:as for the posts opining that he did nothing wrong? impossible to correlate with the facts. to me, he did everything wrong. starting with his decision to quit early, leave a smoking engine as the sole air supply and park on a hill for starters. criminal? 'reckless endangerment' ? i don't think 'equipment malfunction' can cover up his actions. ken patrick
......"He did everything wrong, starting with his decision to leave early"......

......"His actions were criminal".......

......"He is guilty of reckless endangerment"......

None of us, including you as far as I know, were actually on the scene that terrible night. So begging your pardon could you elighten all of us as to just how you KNOW enough to make the very serious charges you have made above. Are you perhaps clairvoyant, able to see things that others can't despite not even being there?

So make use of your "special vision" for a moment and tell us "stoopids" just how many handbrakes engineer Harding actually set that night......or did he not set any at all? After all you surely must know those answers, as you seem to claim to know everything else that happened there that night, and why.

In all my years participating in numerous discussion boards I have never seen anyone persist so in demonstrating his total ignorance of the situation at hand. I feel truly sorry for the people that may have to work with you on your job. BTW none of the dozens of CPA's I have known were even the slightest bit qualified to operate railroad locomotives.

There have been numerous professional railroaders post on this thread, more than a few of them qualified on locomotives.....and none of them know what really happened here........but you claim you do, and you weren't even there!

Wow!

SRM
  by charlie6017
 
It's just my humble opinion and I'm not a moderator in this forum nor am I an admin,
but I think it's for the greater good if this thread was locked until true actual facts are
disclosed to the public.

My .02 of a dollar,

Charlie
  by MEC407
 
charlie6017 wrote:It's just my humble opinion and I'm not a moderator in this forum nor am I an admin,
but I think it's for the greater good if this thread was locked until true actual facts are
disclosed to the public.

My .02 of a dollar,

Charlie

I have to agree with my colleague Mr. Ricker. We're getting nowhere, and I don't like the accusations/hearsay, especially since the target(s) can't defend themselves here, and the accusers are in some cases anonymous.

Maybe the TSB reports will make our heads spin, but until those reports come out, the speculation is doing more harm than good.

If anyone has something such as a news article or government report that they want to post, PM me and I'll unlock the thread. For now, let's take a break and wait for new information to come to light. Rest assured that this topic will not remain locked forever.
  by MEC407
 
From Sun News:
Sun News wrote:Freight trains could be running through Lac-Megantic, Que., by Christmas, but not without plenty of trepidation on the part of residents.
. . .
The restored rail line will provide relief to local businesses that rely on the hundreds of trains that pass through the area every year.
Read the rest of the article at: http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/ca ... Jo.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by Jeff Smith
 
Echoed. Let's relax a bit and not pre-judge.
MEC407 wrote:
charlie6017 wrote:It's just my humble opinion and I'm not a moderator in this forum nor am I an admin,
but I think it's for the greater good if this thread was locked until true actual facts are
disclosed to the public.

My .02 of a dollar,

Charlie

I have to agree with my colleague Mr. Ricker. We're getting nowhere, and I don't like the accusations/hearsay, especially since the target(s) can't defend themselves here, and the accusers are in some cases anonymous.

Maybe the TSB reports will make our heads spin, but until those reports come out, the speculation is doing more harm than good.

If anyone has something such as a news article or government report that they want to post, PM me and I'll unlock the thread. For now, let's take a break and wait for new information to come to light. Rest assured that this topic will not remain locked forever.
  by sandyriverman
 
I discovered some new material, related to the role that Canadian government "oversight" (or lack of it) as it related to Transport Canada's mission to see that all the rules and regulations, formulated to see that rail transportation in Canada, would be done while following the rules, was not really done in a very good way at all. In fact if you read this article you will see that oversight of rail operations, and safety rules being followed, was terribly lacking. I contacted MEC407 and showed him what I had found, and said to him that I thought a lot of good people had followed this thread, and should see this new information, I thought, as it is just one more piece of a bigger puzzle. He kindly unlocked the thread and suggested that I post it. Read on.

Surfing the web early this Thanksgiving morning, I came across a news article, regarding the regulatory "oversight" of Canadian Railroads, or more appropriately "lack" of that expected oversight, by Transport Canada, an audit that was completed just "days before" the Lac Megantic disaster.

From that article:

......."OTTAWA -- A rail-safety audit completed just days before the deadly July train crash in Lac-Megantic, Que., found "significant weaknesses" in Transport Canada's oversight of federally regulated railways.
Those weaknesses include a lack of knowledge of rail routes used to transport dangerous goods, too few safety auditors, poorly trained inspectors and an absence of follow-up or sanctions when safety problems are found.
"What we identified was that there were weaknesses in all aspects of how Transport Canada is overseeing rail safety systems in the (rail) companies," auditor general Michael Ferguson told a news conference Tuesday".......

......."His report found that only 14 safety audits of Canada's 31 federally regulated railways had been completed in the previous three years -- just a quarter of the audits Transport Canada had expected to carry out.
Moreover, "the scope of the department's audits is very limited," stated the report"........


And eight of those 14 audits focused on just the two largest operators, CN and Canadian Pacific, leaving Canada's smaller operators largely unchecked"................"and one of those small rail companies was the Montreal, Maine and Atlantic, whose unattended, single-operator train carrying 7.6 million litres of volatile crude oil derailed and exploded in Lac-Megantic on July 6, killing 47 people".......

Link to article: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/signific ... -1.1561010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the earlier part of this thread, I mentioned an airline disaster that had happened at Dryden, Ontario, Canada, in March of 1989, one that resulted in 26 deaths. I mentioned this specifically, because of how it was investigated, and what evidence was found during the investigation, and because I thought all of that bore more than a little bit of similarity to Lac Megantic. This crash (Dryden) was the result of several smaller things, combining at that moment in time to bring on disaster. The Canadian safety board did NOT investigate this accident, but rather an investigation was done under the guidance of the Honorable Virgil P. Moshansky. This was done, I believe, in order to be able to take an honest look at the airline regulatory structure in Canada, at the time, and whether or not this may have contributed in some way to the accident.

The report goes on to state that (among other things): ......"competitive pressures caused by commercial deregulation cut into safety standards and that many of the industry’s sloppy practices and questionable procedures placed the pilot in a very difficult situation"........

Sounds very familiar to more than a bit of the discussion we have read concerning Lac Megantic, doesn't it.

You can google search, if interested, and turn up a PDF file of the complete report on the Dryden event, and find more about that disaster.

I think, more than anything else, that the general public has the right to know anything and everythingthat may have contributed to the Lac Megantic disaster. It now seems within the realm of possibility that Transport Canada, the soul agency charged with promulgating the rules that railroads follow when operating in Canada, and seeing that they were followed, and that especially all safety issues were properly monitored, was "asleep at the switch, so to speak. This audit, completed the week before Lac Megantic, pointed out how the "regulators" may well have dropped the ball, and that may have been a contributing factor, to some extent, to the Lac Megantic disaster.

Transport Canada allowed the MMA to operate with one man crews. They say they did not specifically "permit" this, but allowed it by not telling them they couldn't operate that way. Transport Canada did not even know, according to this audit, what railroads were carrying hazmat, over what routes. It seems that those charged with making the regulations, and the oversight of them to see that they are followed, needed to spend more time auditing the lines to make sure that was happening. As has been pointed out, TC did not know, for sure, that MMA was hauling Hazmat with one man crews. In that case, being something quite new, and considering the cargo, it seems that TC should have spent some time monitoring those MMA operations in this area.

What significance this may have had, to the cause of the wreck, remains to be seen, and hopefully, one of these days, the investigators will hopefully tell us.

But it is clear to me that this dreadful laxness, as it came to seeing that railroads operated according to the rules, and that those rules were adequate to ensure safety, as much as possible, surely did not help the situation that night.

This is certainly NOT how the FRA works in this country!

SRM
Last edited by MEC407 on Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: fixed broken link
  by rovetherr
 
Thanks for that article Mr. SRM. After reading the auditor's report, it certainly sounds like there are some much larger over site issues at TC that while not causing the accident, certainly did little to put the safeguards in place to prevent such an occurance. And you are correct, certainly not how the FRA operates, at least these days. And as much as a straight up PITA the audits are, in the long run it can lead to a safer and more efficient operation.
  by Cowford
 
Again, just to be clear about the investigation: The TSB did not investigate the Dryden crash as it was not in existence at the time, and the TSB does not report into TC.
  by CPF363
 
What is surprising is the lack of information obtained from the black box on the train's locomotives. The black box contains all of the vital information pertinent to what the engineer did prior to the derailment. Has anyone seen anything on what was recovered in the black box as of yet? Within the box is the time-stamped information. For example, the information obtained from the black box would read something like this:

1. Train arrived at Nantes at 22:30 hours, full break application, telemetry device reads 0 P.S.I.
2. 22:55, full break release, telemetry device reads 85 P.S.I., train's speed indicator indicates movement. (More handbrakes required)
3. Full break application 22:56, telemetry device reads 0 P.S.I.
4. 23:05, full break release, telemetry device reads 85 P.S.I., train's speed indicator indicates no movement.

Engineer would then possibly tie the handbrakes of an extra car for safe measures and tie all locomotive handbrakes after that. Depart for hotel.

The hand brakes on the locomotives and the train would have been able to hold the train in place regardless if the lead engine was shut down.
  by gokeefe
 
CPF363 wrote:What is surprising is the lack of information obtained from the black box on the train's locomotives. The black box contains all of the vital information pertinent to what the engineer did prior to the derailment. Has anyone seen anything on what was recovered in the black box as of yet? Within the box is the time-stamped information.
That information would be witheld until the investigation is complete. At least from my perspective its not surprising at all.
  by BR&P
 
It's interesting - and perhaps a bit distressing - to see the various tangents being gone off on in some posts. While the amount of government oversite, the practicality of one man crews and other things are certainly debatable, in this case that's irrelevant. The train ran away because there were insufficient hand brakes applied. Period. WHY that was so will be reported when the final analysis is given. But the fact that the train ran away makes that obvious.

So either A) the crewman did not apply enough, (either through a deliberate shortcut, or through innocent miscalculation thinking he DID have enough) or B) someone released some of the brakes after he applied them.

One additional point - probably has been made before but I'm not going back through 54 pages of posts to see. Given the speed the train attained, it was not a case of "almost" enough brakes. Let's take a hypothetical number and say 12 brakes would have been required to prevent movement. If 10 brakes were applied, and the train subsequently began to move, it's not likely it would be going 60 or 70 mph. The retarding force of those 10 brakes would limit the speed, and the distance traveled would not seem enough that the brake shoes would be burned off.
  by gokeefe
 
BR&P wrote:One additional point - probably has been made before but I'm not going back through 54 pages of posts to see. Given the speed the train attained, it was not a case of "almost" enough brakes. Let's take a hypothetical number and say 12 brakes would have been required to prevent movement. If 10 brakes were applied, and the train subsequently began to move, it's not likely it would be going 60 or 70 mph. The retarding force of those 10 brakes would limit the speed, and the distance traveled would not seem enough that the brake shoes would be burned off.
I'm not so sure that's correct. I don't think the speed curve on a runaway train is linear, its probably closer to exponential or even a logarithm. To me it doesn't seem out of the question but I am neither an investigator nor a forensic scientist.
  by BR&P
 
gokeefe wrote:
BR&P wrote:One additional point - probably has been made before but I'm not going back through 54 pages of posts to see. Given the speed the train attained, it was not a case of "almost" enough brakes. Let's take a hypothetical number and say 12 brakes would have been required to prevent movement. If 10 brakes were applied, and the train subsequently began to move, it's not likely it would be going 60 or 70 mph. The retarding force of those 10 brakes would limit the speed, and the distance traveled would not seem enough that the brake shoes would be burned off.
I'm not so sure that's correct. I don't think the speed curve on a runaway train is linear, its probably closer to exponential or even a logarithm. To me it doesn't seem out of the question but I am neither an investigator nor a forensic scientist.
The inertia (kinetic energy? not sure of the proper term) obviously increases with speed, I agree. And it's not a simple calculation, changes in track grade, amount of curvature and other factors have an effect. But my point is if - using the hypothetical numbers in my example - 12 brakes were actually needed, and the train had 10 applied, it's not going to be "off to the races" shortly after it starts. The 10 cars with brakes would be fighting and resisting, the friction would be holding the train back to some degree. The speeds reported at the moment of derailment do not suggest there were "almost" enough brakes on at that time.

Again, the "why" will be decided by the official investigations.
  by sandyriverman
 
Just to bring up Newtons 1st law of motion, again, it states that "an object at rest....tends to stay at rest, and and an object in motion,tends to stay in motion.

In practical terms this means that if a certain number of brakes were holding "an object at rest" and that object started to move, for some reason, once in motion the originally applied brakes would not be remotely close enough to what would be necessary "to stop an object in motion and the faster the train moved, the even more ineffective the original brakes would become. The more speed this "object in motion" obtained, the more force it would take to stop it.

SRM
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