• Oil train disaster in Lac-Mégantic, Québec 07-06-2013

  • Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).
Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).

Moderator: MEC407

  by BR&P
 
I understand what you are saying, and I'm not arguing with Newton. However,
once in motion the originally applied brakes would not be remotely close enough to what would be necessary "to stop an object in motion and the faster the train moved, the even more ineffective the original brakes would become
does not really fit here. My point is that with 10 handbrakes instead of 12 in my hypothetical example, the cars might move, but the retarding force of those 10 brakes would act to keep the speed of the cars somewhat limited. As I said, I don't know exactly what grade, curves etc were involved but IF the crewman tied "almost" enough brakes on, I don't see a 70 mph runaway (or whatever the speed was) happening.
  by gokeefe
 
BR&P wrote:but the retarding force of those 10 brakes would act to keep the speed of the cars somewhat limited.
Not likely and in particular due to the downgrade. Once the brakes lost their grip it was all over. The phenomenon is called brake fade and assuming the brakes were holding at all that is what happenned.
  by mwhite
 
Also factor in that the force required to overcome static friction is greater than that required to overcome dynamic friction. Thus once the train started to move the retarding force of sliding wheels is less than when the train was not in motion. This is the same principal that makes ABS brakes work better than non-ABS brakes in situations where sliding is possible.
  by sandyriverman
 
Cowford wrote:Again, just to be clear about the investigation: The TSB did not investigate the Dryden crash as it was not in existence at the time, and the TSB does not report into TC.
Exactly right on both accounts. The reason I have brought forth this information, at this time, is because of what was said, after the accident in Dryden, about the less than adequate job Transport Canada was doing with the mission it was charged with regarding airline safety issues, and how more recent similar actions by Transport Canada, regarding railroad safety issues, and safety rules oversight, might turn out to have been a factor, to some level, in what happened at Lac Megantic.

At the time of the Dryden air crash, Transport Canada was tasked by the Canadian govt with the job of making the rules for the Canadian aviation industry, and overseeing them, and ensuring that the rules, especially involving safety issues, were being followed.

Here is a paragraph from a book on airline disasters by Macarthur Job, who has exhaustively studied this subject for many years, and has written extensively on the subject. .........."An investigation ensued by the Canadian Aviation Safety Board. ........"19 days after the crash, responsibility for the investigation was taken FROM the hands of the safety board, and the Privy Council of Canada appointed a "special investigation" led by commissioner Peter Moshansky, with an impressive team of legal and technical advisors. This was done specifically because: The tragic nature of this accident, the anomalies coming to light in the airline and even its 'operational surveillance' by Transport Canada!"........

A story written in AvStop.com, in 1993, 4 yrs after Dryden said this: ........The accident was all the more tragic because just seven weeks earlier, warnings within the regulatory authority Transport Canada had been leaked to the press. In part the leaked memo said, "Air carrier inspection is no longer capable of meeting even minimum requirements necessary to ensure safety. In fact, it is no longer able to assure the Minister of the safety of large air carrier commercial air services in Canada"......... and also: .......The routine accident investigation was subsumed into a judicial inquiry under the Honorable Virgil P. Moshansky. His report clearly shows that competitive pressures caused by commercial deregulation cut into safety standards. Moreover the regulatory authority was aware of this but could not counter it because the government was cutting regulatory resources.......

AvStop.com article: http://avstop.com/news/airontario.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is interesting to note that immediately after Lac Megantic Transport Canada and the Canadian government came in for heavy criticism due to the ongoing deregulation of Canadian railroad industry, and the govt cutback of money that made this situation even worse. Much of that sounds more than a little bit like the quotes I have included above, regarding the Dryden accident. In fact in 2007 Judge Moshansky, the Dryden Investigator, in response to Ottawa's move to to give Canada's air carriers greater responsibility to oversee the safety of their operations told the Commons transport committee this: "Today, 18 years after Dryden, history is repeating itself, only worse."

Judge Moshansky quote story: http://fairwhistleblower.ca/issues/air_ ... ryden.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Many of the "regulatory system" problems are long-standing issues that have been previously flagged, dating back a dozen years to when the federal government adopted a new rail safety regime called Safety Management System, or SMS.

The SMS program relies on Ottawa doing in-depth safety audits to ensure rail operators are complying with whole-system safety protocols, rather than just spot checks for ad hoc deficiencies. But you can see, from the report I quoted regarding the "lack of audits", published just a week before the Lac Megantic disaster, that this SMS program was working way less that what was originally desired. No audits were done of MMA thus there was no way for Transport Canada to tell if the railroad was following the safety rules........or not. Clearly, by doing this, the government "regulators" "abdicated their responsibility" to public safety, to more than a considerable extent.

By using the Safety Management System, for some years, Transport Canada has become increasingly reliant, upon the railroads themselves being more and more responsible for ensuring that the safety rules were being followed, as outlined by the government, thus (the railroads) were essentially "regulating themselves". I think it is probably quite safe to say that in any vastly competetive market like railroads, allowing this kind of thing to happen, will ultimately result in corners being cut, and safety compromised, as the bottom line becomes the main objective. Anyone who knows me knows that I am not a big fan of government, but that being said, there are places that government can do an important job. Regulating the operations of transportation entities, and making rules for safe operation, and providing adequate oversight to see that those rules are being followed is extremely important for the safety of the public!

Whatever comes out of the Lac Megantic disaster investigation will involve much more than who set, or didn't set, what brakes, or how many. Just like when the airline crash took place at Dryden Ontario, 24 yrs ago, the transportation regulatory system in effect at the time of Lac Megantic, may well end up being one piece, of many, that allowed this disaster to happen.

SRM
  by BR&P
 
gokeefe wrote:Not likely and in particular due to the downgrade. Once the brakes lost their grip it was all over. The phenomenon is called brake fade and assuming the brakes were holding at all that is what happened.
Brake fade can be a factor at high speeds with a lot of momentum. A standing train just beginning to move is not going to experience brake fade for a considerable distance. It is not a case of "once the brakes lost their grip it was all over." It does not work like that.
Also factor in that the force required to overcome static friction is greater than that required to overcome dynamic friction. Thus once the train started to move the retarding force of sliding wheels is less than when the train was not in motion. This is the same principal that makes ABS brakes work better than non-ABS brakes in situations where sliding is possible.


We have no idea whether the wheels were sliding or not. Ideally they were not, meaning you would have the full surface of the shoes against the wheel. As you suggest, that is more desirable than the wheels locked and sliding. It's also possible there was a combination, with some sliding and others not.

A witness nearby said something to the effect that he saw the train rumbling by him, not too far from where it had been parked before the fire etc. (maybe not his exact words but something like that). In reading that I got the impression that the train picked up speed fairly rapidly after it began moving, which would suggest there was nowhere near enough handbrakes at that time. Again, whether some had been released, or not enough were applied, will hopefully be spelled out in the final report(s).
  by mwhite
 
BR&P wrote: We have no idea whether the wheels were sliding or not. Ideally they were not, meaning you would have the full surface of the shoes against the wheel. As you suggest, that is more desirable than the wheels locked and sliding. It's also possible there was a combination, with some sliding and others not.
I believe there was an eye witness who saw the train as it came into town and stated that he/she saw sparks coming from the train. I assumed that would be from sliding wheels but I shouldn't have. There is too much speculation here and I don't want to be one to add to it!
  by BR&P
 
I saw the same thing on a news article, and agree SOMETHING - loco(s) and/or car(s) did have the hand brake applied. A whole lot of the equation is going to revolve on which ones and how many.
There is too much speculation here and I don't want to be one to add to it!
Why not? I don't think there's any harm in speculation. This is a forum for the exchange of opinions and ideas. We're all working from what has been stated in the media. While those doing the official investigations must avoid speculation and must work from actual facts to the fullest extend possible. we're a bunch of people who are interested, but not directly involved. Hashing over various scenarios which could have caused or contributed to this is a legitimate use of a public forum. As long as our speculation is known to be just that, and as long as we avoid direct character assassination ("John Q. Smith caused this wreck by doing _____"), we have no obligation to remain silent until an official cause is released.
  by mwhite
 
BR&P wrote: I don't think there's any harm in speculation. This is a forum for the exchange of opinions and ideas. We're all working from what has been stated in the media. While those doing the official investigations must avoid speculation and must work from actual facts to the fullest extend possible. we're a bunch of people who are interested, but not directly involved. Hashing over various scenarios which could have caused or contributed to this is a legitimate use of a public forum. As long as our speculation is known to be just that, and as long as we avoid direct character assassination ("John Q. Smith caused this wreck by doing _____"), we have no obligation to remain silent until an official cause is released.
Point taken. I guess I should have said I don't want to be one making assumptions. I agree that it is okay to discuss possible causes. Who knows, perhaps the informed contributors on this site might hit upon something the investigators overlooked?
  by Zeke
 
BR&P, I agree 100% . The surest way to drive people out of a site is to over moderate. The free and open exchange of ideas is the lifeblood of any forum. It is obvious, some limits must be placed to ensure decorum and an atmosphere conducive to attaining knowledge. However, this is a public forum and as long as the bare minimums are met we should all have a go at the subject at hand. BTW the mod in this MMA forum is more than fair IMHO.
  by gokeefe
 
mwhite wrote:Point taken. I guess I should have said I don't want to be one making assumptions. I agree that it is okay to discuss possible causes. Who knows, perhaps the informed contributors on this site might hit upon something the investigators overlooked?
Regardless, on some level I think you had and have a point. Discussion of causality is one thing but making it personal to the individuals involved risks a number of things to include potential slander. In the case of criminal charges there is always the potential to unwittingly taint the jury pool based on discussions here that have no foundation in the forensic evidence (because it isn't publicly known). All of this is a risk but I would also agree that doesn't mean there should be no discussion at all. I simply seek to acknowledge as I think you (mwhite) do that there are others, not posting here, who have rights and protections even if they aren't present to tell their side of the story.
  by MEC407
 
Zeke wrote:BR&P, I agree 100% . The surest way to drive people out of a site is to over moderate. The free and open exchange of ideas is the lifeblood of any forum. It is obvious, some limits must be placed to ensure decorum and an atmosphere conducive to attaining knowledge. However, this is a public forum and as long as the bare minimums are met we should all have a go at the subject at hand. BTW the mod in this MMA forum is more than fair IMHO.
Thank you, and I agree that over-moderation drives people away. I try my best not to do that, and locking a thread is something that I only do as a last resort (and usually only temporarily until I can figure out a better solution).
gokeefe wrote:Discussion of causality is one thing but making it personal to the individuals involved risks a number of things to include potential slander. In the case of criminal charges there is always the potential to unwittingly taint the jury pool based on discussions here that have no foundation in the forensic evidence (because it isn't publicly known). All of this is a risk but I would also agree that doesn't mean there should be no discussion at all. I simply seek to acknowledge as I think you (mwhite) do that there are others, not posting here, who have rights and protections even if they aren't present to tell their side of the story.
Well stated. I couldn't have explained it better.
  by JimBoylan
 
Fishrrman wrote:[[ That information would be witheld until the investigation is complete. At least from my perspective its not surprising at all. ]]
That's the way it works.
I'd reckon that whatever information the event recorders contained, it was known in a matter of hours after they were downloaded.
In Canada, at least, it works that way. In the United States, its National Transportation Safety Board has already released some of the readings from event recorders of a 12/1/13 accident at Spuyten Duyvil, N.Y. on 12/2/13!
  by gokeefe
 
JimBoylan wrote:
Fishrrman wrote:[[ That information would be witheld until the investigation is complete. At least from my perspective its not surprising at all. ]]
That's the way it works.
I'd reckon that whatever information the event recorders contained, it was known in a matter of hours after they were downloaded.
In Canada, at least, it works that way. In the United States, its National Transportation Safety Board has already released some of the readings from event recorders of a 12/1/13 accident at Spuyten Duyvil, N.Y. on 12/2/13!
I have noticed that difference as well. You have to wonder, if forensic evidence had been released that indicated human error, would the setup for Burkhardt's disastrous PR event have ever happenned? He could have been seen as being among those who were victimized as well. Instead he took out his frustration on first responders and appears the villain (if not actually being the villain....).
  by JimBoylan
 
Has this section of track ever been fixed? From http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e14864394/ on 10/14/13
As of Monday, the tourist train Orford Express was to bring visitors to Lac-Mégantic and its pristine surroundings, which were left unscathed by the explosion that devastated the town’s centre on July 6. Close to 5,000 tickets have already been sold for trips in the coming days. But late Friday, Transport Canada ordered the shutdown of the railway between Lennoxville and Lac-Mégantic. The department requested a more thorough examination of the rails and repairs after the inspection it carried out on Thursday.
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