Decision made to replace the Arrows

The Ms were very cranky and temperamental. The power was very abrupt, especially in push mode, and would cut power the instant you touched the brakes, which made for a very rough ride. The brakes were also quite annoying, as the EPIC brake on them was also very cranky and touchy

The computer screen that they had ran on windows 3.1, and most of the times didn't work to begin with. They were just really annoying to run...

Also, the 4422 and 4424 were constant hanger queens, and were parts units for a LONG time until someone got the bright idea to put them back in service, which didn't last very long. I think I ran the 22 once, I ran the 24 a few times, and each time it had some kind of issues. MOst Ms (actually most 44s) had issues with wheel slip and cutting power, mainly because one of the various speed sensors on the loco would go wacko and once the speed of one axle would get out of wack with the other axles, it would cut power to that axle. There were some that wouldn't be able to get up to even 60 or 70mph because the constant cutting of power. They would fix it, it would last a week, and then start all over again. The '44s also had a fun habit of hitting a bump really hard (the bumps around Lane and North Elizabeth were good for it) and open the main circuit breaker and the whole loco would die. That was always fun...banging around, the thing making horrible noises, then dying, and that eerie silence you get when riding in a dead locomotive, only sound you hear is the groaning and creaking from the horrible trucks and suspension they have, and then it starting to come back to live again, sounding like trying to start a car with a weak battery.

The good thing about all the '44s was that they would keep running (usually) if they had some kind of issues, and let you limp home at least. While I think the 46s are much more reliable, and often a reset will fix whatever ills it, if a reset doesn't fix it, you are pretty much done - there really is no limping home in a '46.

I remember when the MLs were still coming around and they were testing them, I had a test train with a '44M - I think it was the 4425, but I don't remember exactly, and 9 MLs and a '46 on the other end of the train. They were trying to simulate a 10 car ML train. We were doing speed tests, and it took from Princeton Jct to Midway to get up to 90mph (at the time the max speed of MLs)

But I always liked running the Os, even tho they suffered from some of these ills as well, they just seemed to run better. A 6 car comet set with a 44O was always a treat, especially if it had the 4409. The 4409 let you power brake for whatever reason (now that its retired, i guess the secret can be let out!) so you could REALLY make up time and run hard when she was powering the train....and if you had a comet 3 cab car? WOW, you could make the brake shoes catch fire on that puppy

I remember a certain go home train to Long Branch late at night with a certain engineer back in the blue shirt days, where we had the 4409 and made it down there, on time of course haha, and mechanical thought that we were dragging a hand brake or something because the brakes were still hot and smoking after we parked it - hahahahaa

There is almost nothing different internally about an AEM-7 and an ALP44. The O and E models dont need a rebuild, other than a truck rebuild maybe. Compaired to Amtraks AEM-7s they are MINT inside. The workspace is clean, the cards and wiring are in perfect shape and the SCR/Diode cabinets have been well maintained. I would really like to see them be re-purposed for something good here other than rotting away behind the MMC. When amtrak borrowed them for the work trains I worked overnights to stay on top of those motors and only once or twice all summer I had to go out and help a crew out with them. Both times was because someone killed the second unit and it had to be jump started. Other than that they did not have any break downs hauling the work trains around, even pulling the very heavy loaded tie train in along with the tie replacement machine.

Excellent explanations JT and Approach. When I have more time I will respond in greater detail, but I must say my question regarding cost effectiveness with the 44s is more than adequately answered, I do pray that the 44s (at least some of the Os) come out of long term storage fighting because they were put down far too early.

Nick am I the only one who thinks it would be prudent to perhaps unlock the ALP44 thread and relocate some of these posts to it so we can break up the Arrow and ALP conversation? Just a thought.

SEPTA's ALP is an M. That would explain its being somewhat of a hangar queen itself in its first few years around....

I don't know if they were put down "too early" - the '44Os are now 22 years old, and while have been out of service for a while, they did work day in and day out for 20 years. the Es and the Ms, well thats a different story, but I say it again, age didn't necessarily mean it was a good or bad loco.

Also, lets remember that working a work train at relatively slow speeds, even tho dragging a lot of weight, is totally different than stop start acceleration with a passenger train and at high speeds accelerating and braking hundreds of times a day.

There are plenty of times a loco works fine in the yard all day, but put it out on the main with a passenger train and then it turns to Jello. Its always fun taking an "okay'ed train" out of the MMC to Newark or Morrisville, Long Branch and especially NY, and then get out on the main and it falls flat on its face. Limping a dying train somewhere is never fun, especially if its NY....and its kinda funny when they tell you to take it right back to the yard where ya got it from when they can't fix it in NY or wherever you limped it too....

"we're baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk"

Excellent explanations JT and Approach. When I have more time I will respond in greater detail, but I must say my question regarding cost effectiveness with the 44s is more than adequately answered, I do pray that the 44s (at least some of the Os) come out of long term storage fighting because they were put down far too early.

The problem is when folks like NJT find a pot of State or Federal money that will pay for new equipment without regard to what might already be on the property. This is what Metro North is up to with suddenly retiring the M4/6s about 20 years before their time...if its somebody else's money then who cares, full speed ahead. The Arrows are a bit on the knife edge. They got their mid-life rebuild and are over 30 years old...probably take at least 2-5 years to get replacements in so I guess we can say they were fully utilized. On the other hand is there anything fundamentally wrong with them that necessitates their retirement. PATCO found it more cost effective to do a re-build on cars that are approaching 40 because the body shell and other components were still in great condition. I really wish NJT would make more of an effort to not spend taxpayer money like it was free...maybe in return getting more operating subsidies to reduce ticket prices or increase service.

Jtgshu wrote:The Ms were very cranky and temperamental. The power was very abrupt, especially in push mode, and would cut power the instant you touched the brakes, which made for a very rough ride. The brakes were also quite annoying, as the EPIC brake on them was also very cranky and touchy

The computer screen that they had ran on windows 3.1, and most of the times didn't work to begin with. They were just really annoying to run...

Also, the 4422 and 4424 were constant hanger queens, and were parts units for a LONG time until someone got the bright idea to put them back in service, which didn't last very long. I think I ran the 22 once, I ran the 24 a few times, and each time it had some kind of issues. MOst Ms (actually most 44s) had issues with wheel slip and cutting power, mainly because one of the various speed sensors on the loco would go wacko and once the speed of one axle would get out of wack with the other axles, it would cut power to that axle. There were some that wouldn't be able to get up to even 60 or 70mph because the constant cutting of power. They would fix it, it would last a week, and then start all over again. The '44s also had a fun habit of hitting a bump really hard (the bumps around Lane and North Elizabeth were good for it) and open the main circuit breaker and the whole loco would die. That was always fun...banging around, the thing making horrible noises, then dying, and that eerie silence you get when riding in a dead locomotive, only sound you hear is the groaning and creaking from the horrible trucks and suspension they have, and then it starting to come back to live again, sounding like trying to start a car with a weak battery.

The good thing about all the '44s was that they would keep running (usually) if they had some kind of issues, and let you limp home at least. While I think the 46s are much more reliable, and often a reset will fix whatever ills it, if a reset doesn't fix it, you are pretty much done - there really is no limping home in a '46.

I remember when the MLs were still coming around and they were testing them, I had a test train with a '44M - I think it was the 4425, but I don't remember exactly, and 9 MLs and a '46 on the other end of the train. They were trying to simulate a 10 car ML train. We were doing speed tests, and it took from Princeton Jct to Midway to get up to 90mph (at the time the max speed of MLs)

But I always liked running the Os, even tho they suffered from some of these ills as well, they just seemed to run better. A 6 car comet set with a 44O was always a treat, especially if it had the 4409. The 4409 let you power brake for whatever reason (now that its retired, i guess the secret can be let out!) so you could REALLY make up time and run hard when she was powering the train....and if you had a comet 3 cab car? WOW, you could make the brake shoes catch fire on that puppy

I remember a certain go home train to Long Branch late at night with a certain engineer back in the blue shirt days, where we had the 4409 and made it down there, on time of course haha, and mechanical thought that we were dragging a hand brake or something because the brakes were still hot and smoking after we parked it - hahahahaa

Thats pretty cool to hear an engineers view on the 44s, the ALP44Os are my all time favorite locos,I miss them hahahaha.

Heres a pic I took of an ALP44M hooked up to some multilevels in Dover.
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... 070273.jpg

Some old pictures of the 44s mainly on the NJCL! Some of these may have been posted else where before.They're in no particular order.
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... C_1500.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... C_1235.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... CN3126.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... C_1545.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... C_0396.jpg
During the Amtrak lease!
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... CN6100.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv14 ... CN6094.jpg

That mental picture of 4409 power braking into whatever station perhaps trying to make up a delay from a Penn Station switch.. And then pulling into Trenton with the brakes practically on fire (hypothetical scenario here)... Hahahahaha I swear if i didnt used to have a model of 4405 that would make me a 4409 convert.. then again 4405 also was one of the better running 44s (if I recall both were on ACES duty). So I guess 4409 is now my second favorite 44(= I wish NJT would do something with them, 32 perfectly good locomotives just taking up space around the MMC, and then NJT whines and complains about having no more space to store cars, well there is the problem! We have all this prematurely retired equipment (CIII, 44s, 4127, I guess the FHs were basically done.. You get where I am going with that) sitting around taking up all of it. I guess I ended up adding onto Mikes point there. And NJTArrow, excellent 44 pics there.

NJTArrow2 wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:The Ms were very cranky and temperamental. The power was very abrupt, especially in push mode, and would cut power the instant you touched the brakes, which made for a very rough ride. The brakes were also quite annoying, as the EPIC brake on them was also very cranky and touchy

The computer screen that they had ran on windows 3.1, and most of the times didn't work to begin with. They were just really annoying to run...

Also, the 4422 and 4424 were constant hanger queens, and were parts units for a LONG time until someone got the bright idea to put them back in service, which didn't last very long. I think I ran the 22 once, I ran the 24 a few times, and each time it had some kind of issues. MOst Ms (actually most 44s) had issues with wheel slip and cutting power, mainly because one of the various speed sensors on the loco would go wacko and once the speed of one axle would get out of wack with the other axles, it would cut power to that axle. There were some that wouldn't be able to get up to even 60 or 70mph because the constant cutting of power. They would fix it, it would last a week, and then start all over again. The '44s also had a fun habit of hitting a bump really hard (the bumps around Lane and North Elizabeth were good for it) and open the main circuit breaker and the whole loco would die. That was always fun...banging around, the thing making horrible noises, then dying, and that eerie silence you get when riding in a dead locomotive, only sound you hear is the groaning and creaking from the horrible trucks and suspension they have, and then it starting to come back to live again, sounding like trying to start a car with a weak battery.

The good thing about all the '44s was that they would keep running (usually) if they had some kind of issues, and let you limp home at least. While I think the 46s are much more reliable, and often a reset will fix whatever ills it, if a reset doesn't fix it, you are pretty much done - there really is no limping home in a '46.

I remember when the MLs were still coming around and they were testing them, I had a test train with a '44M - I think it was the 4425, but I don't remember exactly, and 9 MLs and a '46 on the other end of the train. They were trying to simulate a 10 car ML train. We were doing speed tests, and it took from Princeton Jct to Midway to get up to 90mph (at the time the max speed of MLs)

But I always liked running the Os, even tho they suffered from some of these ills as well, they just seemed to run better. A 6 car comet set with a 44O was always a treat, especially if it had the 4409. The 4409 let you power brake for whatever reason (now that its retired, i guess the secret can be let out!) so you could REALLY make up time and run hard when she was powering the train....and if you had a comet 3 cab car? WOW, you could make the brake shoes catch fire on that puppy

I remember a certain go home train to Long Branch late at night with a certain engineer back in the blue shirt days, where we had the 4409 and made it down there, on time of course haha, and mechanical thought that we were dragging a hand brake or something because the brakes were still hot and smoking after we parked it - hahahahaa

Thats pretty cool to hear an engineers view on the 44s, the ALP44Os are my all time favorite locos,I miss them hahahaha.

beanbag,

You are missing a key point on the '44s. Remember the original delivery of the '44s, and also noted here as the best runners of the bunch, haven't undergone any rebuilding since their delivery. That's over 20 years, and there's just no way the majority of those engines would be reliable in everyday commuter service with the wear and tear these engines have seen. The '44Ms as pointed out by JT, weren't the best runners and that age didn't factor into their retirement. NJT isn't just dumping engines for no reason. Something needed to done about the '44s and the most long-term cost effective solution was picked (retiring them and ordering '46As).

beanbag,
Thanks I have some more I'll put up son they're towards the end of their days running regular trains.

Sid Farkus wrote:beanbag,

You are missing a key point on the '44s. Remember the original delivery of the '44s, and also noted here as the best runners of the bunch, haven't undergone any rebuilding since their delivery. That's over 20 years, and there's just no way the majority of those engines would be reliable in everyday commuter service with the wear and tear these engines have seen. The '44Ms as pointed out by JT, weren't the best runners and that age didn't factor into their retirement. NJT isn't just dumping engines for no reason. Something needed to done about the '44s and the most long-term cost effective solution was picked (retiring them and ordering '46As).

I keep forgetting about the rebuild cost for them. I completely understand Sid, I know the 44Ms were junk. The 46As are great engines anyway. I guess I as well as several others just naturally pick on the fact that the 44s were retired before the Arrows and not rebuilt. I completely apologize Sid, I'm comparatively young compared to all of you (4405 is older than me, Im 20) and I'm still trying to balance out my old perceptions (all engines including the 44s should get rebuilt) vs. reality (46As would beat the crap out of the rebuilt 44s any day of the week), Im still learning and as I read more here I am gaining lots of valuable information and my perceptions are changing. To add to what you said, the 45s are also more powerful than the 44s too in electric mode, I guess it was just time for the 44s to go, sucks that it was so soon. Hope i was not a bother there Sid and my apologies if I was.

Posted more pics in old school NJCL.

Not relevant to the subject line but since the discussion has veered over to the 44's I pose a general question: Does anyone know if NJT has on it's own or been approached regarding setting aside a 44 or two for preservation? We can (and likely will) debate whether they should have been retired etc.. Regardless, they were significant in NJT history particularly for the Morris & Essex lines and the Midtown Direct service. To whom and where is another hornet's nest I'm not going to poke but it would be nice to seen a couple end up somewhere.