Post traumatic stress syndrome in CN employees

A few years ago I had heard that Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome had been recognized in guys who ran the plows in winter.

I was wondering if this had progressed on the company outside of just having been indentified. I know first hand that some of these guys are pretty freaked out from a few years of the experience.

Dieter/

Humm, maybe they should change those jobs to selective service, that way they can get a guy who wants it. We have a wedge here that hasnt been put in service in many years. Id be more than happy to participate in plow service.

Freaked out from running a plow? These guys from Arizona, or what? Aside from stray animals, and maybe an occasional tresspasser, I wouldn't think you would hit anything except snowdrifts out there. Is it just the monotony of watching the "winter wonderland" pass by as you sit alone in your dark cab for hours on end?

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
All work...

Dieter,

Can you elaborate a little further as to why plow service = post-traumatic stress? I'm not seeing a connection other than monotony and isolation = stir crazyness.

Plow service would be up my alley, actually. Do you need to be a qualifed engineer to do that, or can any trainman (trainperson?) do the job? What I wouldn't give to operate one of those old rotaries...


Last edited by myself, 5:19pm CDT 4/25/06

The guy in the slot actually quit the railroad - it was a CN spin-off but he began with CN nearly 30 years ago. He was a Track Maintainer, qualified to run "The Big Hook". He complained about the stress of it for years and I never really thought about his problem until I read an article about it in TRAINS a few years back, then another CN employee corroberated the horror stories of others. It's a real issue.

He told me that he was in the dark, the plow is being pushed from behind by a guy who can't see anything for the flying snow, day or night, and they're communicating on a radio. In the dark, I don't know how he knew when to pull the wings in for crossings, and he told me that in the day, he knew every treeline for over 200 miles, and it was by watching the treeline that he knew exactly where he was.

People have been killed in these things when they get the front wedged onto a crossing. Plows have been known to flip and get run through by the locomotive at crossings. If you have a prick running the engine, they are known to enjoy going faster than they should to scare the crap out of the poor guy in the plow. When the plows hit large drifts, it sounds like an explosion, and the whole thing rattles so badly you think it's going to come apart - and you're going to get killed. Like lightning, if you're not expecting a strike, it's a dreadful fright.

A guy I know who is still on CN told me that he knows several people who have a problem with it, and the guy who quit the spin-off is still freaked out by it. I actually think the guy should be on disability for it, compared to some of the other jokesters we see who are on it. This guy shouldn't be working anymore, anywhere.

I too always thought running a plow would be an great experience. Like any job done without a choice, I guess that too is another matter few of us understand.

Dieter/

I'm missing something here - why can't the plow get a desktop control on the left side, and run MU cables to the locomotives - effectively making the plow also a cab-car like Metra or GO has. That way, the hogger and plowman can work together and safely.

I'm missing a whole lot here. Having spent 12-months, 26-days in the beautiful Republic of South Vietnam, PTSD? Give me a break! Pricks running the engines? Give me another break! Do you think there might be a speed-restriction on shoving snow-plows? I guess the engr. has free reign to shove at any speed he desires?

ig greenwood disclosed...

"Having spent 12-months, 26-days in the beautiful Republic of South Vietnam, PTSD? Give me a break!"

I'm assuming that this wonderful vacation getaway was courtesy the United States government and took place sometime between 1967 and 1973? If so, then, yes, these guys' experiences pale in comparison to what you went through. (Seriously, no offense or disrespect, Mr. Greenwood. Your service to your country is greatly appreciated.)


ig also asked...

"Pricks running the engines?"

Jerks exist in all jobs, both blue and white collar. There are those who aren't necessarily jerks, but who like practical jokes and those who are just plain sadistic and delight in the suffering of everyone else. I know I've dealt with my share through my life...


ig also pondered...

"Do you think there might be a speed-restriction on shoving snow-plows? I guess the engr. has free reign to shove at any speed he desires?"

(See above comment.)


Although, seriously I'm not a CN plowboy, so I can't attest to whether or not this is a common occourance or isolated incidents.


Tadman asked...

"I'm missing something here - why can't the plow get a desktop control on the left side, and run MU cables to the locomotives - effectively making the plow also a cab-car like Metra or GO has. That way, the hogger and plowman can work together and safely."

Actually, wouldn't it make more sense to have the plow controls on the left and the engineer's controls on the right and maybe a conductor's desk in the back, akin to the "flight engineer" position in a 747? Then there's be a unit or two MUed behind the plow for power... unmanned. That way, EVERYBODY'S up front and there would be extra incentive not to be wreckless with the plow.

But that would make too much sense now, wouldn't it?


Can we have some actual plowboys chime in here? CN or otherwise. Just how bad is it? Got any horror stories to share? Inquiring minds want to know.

Mr. Komachi,
Yes, an all expenses-paid "vacation" courtesy of Uncle Sam. 1967-68
Forgive my over-reaction. It's just that I find it hard to feature engineer's "running wild" and shoving some poor operator unrestricted through snow-drifts. One transmission via the radio would put an immediate halt to any such nonsense. And yes, there are speed-restrictions for snow-plow service.
I could very well be "all wet" here. Could this be post traumatic "snow" disorder?

ig greenwood replied...

"Yes, an all expenses-paid "vacation" courtesy of Uncle Sam. 1967-68"

Well, again, let me thank you for your service to your country.

And speaking of service, plow service...


"Forgive my over-reaction. It's just that I find it hard to feature engineer's "running wild" and shoving some poor operator unrestricted through snow-drifts. One transmission via the radio would put an immediate halt to any such nonsense. And yes, there are speed-restrictions for snow-plow service."

Believe me, considering what you went through during your tour of duty... this pales in comparison. Still, after thinking about it for a bit, I can see PTSD as being a possibility...

Sitting alone (I'm assuming alone) in the plow with no noise other than the sound of the wheels against the rails, the wedge and wings scraping snow and the intermittent chatter on the radio... the isolation would start getting to you after a while.

Also, with your only indication of how fast you're going being the passing trees, signals, telagraph/telephone poles whipping past (or are there speedometers on the control stands in the plows?)... it could be a little un-nerving to some... especially at night when the effect is amplified to a certian degree.

Add to that, having no real control over the speed of the train... adds extra stress to the situation.

Almost like being in a sensory deprivation tank.

So, that's where I can see the compound circumstances accumulating to rattle someone up. Some people can handle stuff like that on a regular basis, some can't.

Are you allowed to have a standard AM/FM radio with you while you're pulling plow duty? How about a CD player or iPod? Music or news/talk (say "As It Happens" on the CBC, BBC programing on NPR, "Coast to Coast AM" with George Noory/Art Bell/Ian Punnet) helps take the edge off of things. Again, why I say there should be 2-3 man crews in the plow, with the plow operating the consist. Frequent banter or even just guys sitting in silence is better than sitting alone in a small cab, alone, with just your thoughts...


But I'm NOT a trained psychologist, so take my "diagnosis" with a grain of salt. (Although, I did have to take some Psychology classes in college when I was a Criminal Justice major, so maybe I do know something...)


"I could very well be "all wet" here. Could this be post traumatic "snow" disorder? "

No, you're welcome to voice your opinion as you wish. And yes, being a fellow Midwesterner, I can see how your reaction could be attributed to Post Traumatic Snow Disorder. I perscribe a strict regimine of lemonade (or whatver tasty beverage you prefer) and lounging in a hammock for three months (namely June, July and August), preferably with a nice view of the local rail action.

Dieter wrote: If you have a prick running the engine

A guy I know who is still on CN told me that he knows several people who have a problem with it, and the guy who quit the spin-off is still freaked out by it. This guy shouldn't be working anymore, anywhere.

Humm...... Hey Dieter all railroad jobs, track and transportation freak you out. Your buddy isnt the first guy who had to quit because he cant run with the big dogs. The better part of "us" (RR workers) just deal with it.

JG jumped you because, it aint a walk in the park strapped to a loaded coal train rocketing threw the country side with the thought of what "could" happen at anytime in the back of your head. Most guys arent uneasy ALL the time, but we all know we could get killed at anytime. Same goes for track guys. People get hurt and killed everyday doing railroad work.

Yurr buddy drink alot or use drugs? From what i've saw, MOST of those people have the hardest time dealing with high stress situations. Dont go blaming the hogs, your bro just wasnt the right guy for the job. Dont get me wrong here, i love to crack open a beer after screaming "IM ALIVE". I get off on any good rush, ripping around on my quad, cliff diving, getting thrown around the cab at high speed when running mail trains.

"JUST THINK SOMEWHERE, SOME POOR SAP IS BUYING A MINI-VAN"

This guy does drink, and he's always had a problem with his nerves, but the Throttle Jack behind him exacerbated the situation more times than necessary to the point of sadism. Why the guy in the plow didn't just climb down and choke the living $%&@ out of him I will never know, the driver might have even been his bastard Supervisor. In these Union-Busted CN spin-offs, there's not much you can do but throw a punch or quit.

As far as why isn't it automated, you can't. The amount of snow flying makes for zero visibility in the cab, and the guy in the plow needs to pull in the wings at crossings and I don't know what else. I'll have to dig up the article to post the issue info for you guys to look up.

Dieter wrote:This guy does drink, and he's always had a problem with his nerves, but the Throttle Jack behind him exacerbated the situation more times than necessary to the point of sadism. Why the guy in the plow didn't just climb down and choke the living $%&@ out of him I will never know, the driver might have even been his * Supervisor. In these Union-Busted CN spin-offs, there's not much you can do but throw a punch or quit.

As far as why isn't it automated, you can't. The amount of snow flying makes for zero visibility in the cab, and the guy in the plow needs to pull in the wings at crossings and I don't know what else. I'll have to dig up the article to post the issue info for you guys to look up.

"Throttle-Jack", "Pricks," you're rapidly becoming one of my favorites with your endearing posts.

I will have to ask if any form of personal entertainment devices were permitted, I would tend to think not. Personally I don't want to work with someone distracted with a walkman or a radio doing any job that requires any level of concentration.

Please recall the 1980's Amtrak crash in Maryland on the NE Corridor when two stoners were sitting on the floor of their cab, bonging their brains out while running a freight. They were reaching up and hitting the deadman without looking at where they were going. If you recall this collsion, eyewitnesses reported in the seconds prior to the wreck, the crew was seen tossing a small television from the side window, even though none was ever found by investigators. If Safety's First, people need to pay attention to what they're doing.

I work with a dry-drunk of an imbicile who allegedly can't function without a radio playing. His productivity is half of everyone elses', and if he had to operate any machinery, you can bet he wouldn't have all of his fingers. He's "In Recovery" of a "Recognized Illness", so there's nothing that can be done about his performance without "Violating His Rights". Ain't PC America great?? In Canada when you need help, depending on the Province, it's a whole different ballgame, which is why so many people are given a terminal diagnosis on the FIRST visit to the specialist.

Forgive me, and no disrespect intended, but you guys in the Midwest and South from IC aren't real CN people as CN people are traditionally known. The conditions you guys deal with are completely if you will forgive the pun "Foreign" to what Canadian railroaders typically face daily. You guys really know about as much about coping with snow as a Canadian railroader knows about coping with flooding, hurricanes and tropical storms.

I'm talking about people regularly plowing snow that's up to the window sill, NOT snow half-way up the wheel once every ten years.

Greenwood, I salute you for your year of service, and would like to express my gratitude for the sacrifice of your time, and I'm glad you got through the experience in one piece. I am currently in my 24th year of service to the same flag. The conditions Canadian railroaders face in the winter, WITHOUT a radio and with reduced crew sizes without union protections are nothing to sneeze at, even given your and my experiences. The guy in the plow had a telephone type of intercom, and the retarded bully behind him wouldn't pick up unless it suited him. So much for "The Brotherhood" of railroaders. The English/French racist issue (yes folks, it IS racism) was also a running factor.

We must all remember to never criticise another man until we've hiked a klick in his boots...

This particular fellow was in an abusive work environment for DECADES, and being in Canada, didn't have the same PC safeguards to take advantage of, as initiated by the Clinton Admin for American workers. How the situation didn't come to blows I will never know, chalk it up to Canadian complacency.

For you IC guys who don't know, Canadians without Union representation are working with the same kinds of rights Americans worked under forty years ago. It's like the classic quote from Lyndon Johnson; "Like a jacka$$ in the middle of a field in a hailstorm, there's nowhere to go and you just have to take it." Unless you're a Native American, you can't cry foul to the Government of Canada east of Ontario.

PTSD has been recognized in Ontario among people doing this specific kind of work and I'm trying to find out more about it. This guy isn't in Ontario, he needs help, and he can't get it.

I hope to find that article for you guys this weekend if not before.

Love to you all, IC and CN folks alike!

Dieter/

Dieter wrote:I will have to ask if any form of personal entertainment devices were permitted, I would tend to think not. Personally I don't want to work with someone distracted with a walkman or a radio doing any job that requires any level of concentration.

Please recall the 1980's Amtrak crash in Maryland on the NE Corridor when two stoners were sitting on the floor of their cab, bonging their brains out while running a freight. They were reaching up and hitting the deadman without looking at where they were going. If you recall this collsion, eyewitnesses reported in the seconds prior to the wreck, the crew was seen tossing a small television from the side window, even though none was ever found by investigators. If Safety's First, people need to pay attention to what they're doing.

I work with a dry-drunk of an imbicile who allegedly can't function without a radio playing. His productivity is half of everyone elses', and if he had to operate any machinery, you can bet he wouldn't have all of his fingers. He's "In Recovery" of a "Recognized Illness", so there's nothing that can be done about his performance without "Violating His Rights". Ain't PC America great?? In Canada when you need help, depending on the Province, it's a whole different ballgame, which is why so many people are given a terminal diagnosis on the FIRST visit to the specialist.

Forgive me, and no disrespect intended, but you guys in the Midwest and South from IC aren't real CN people as CN people are traditionally known. The conditions you guys deal with are completely if you will forgive the pun "Foreign" to what Canadian railroaders typically face daily. You guys really know about as much about coping with snow as a Canadian railroader knows about coping with flooding, hurricanes and tropical storms.

I'm talking about people regularly plowing snow that's up to the window sill, NOT snow half-way up the wheel once every ten years.

Greenwood, I salute you for your year of service, and would like to express my gratitude for the sacrifice of your time, and I'm glad you got through the experience in one piece. I am currently in my 24th year of service to the same flag. The conditions Canadian railroaders face in the winter, WITHOUT a radio and with reduced crew sizes without union protections are nothing to sneeze at, even given your and my experiences. The guy in the plow had a telephone type of intercom, and the retarded bully behind him wouldn't pick up unless it suited him. So much for "The Brotherhood" of railroaders. The English/French racist issue (yes folks, it IS racism) was also a running factor.

We must all remember to never criticise another man until we've hiked a klick in his boots...

This particular fellow was in an abusive work environment for DECADES, and being in Canada, didn't have the same PC safeguards to take advantage of, as initiated by the Clinton Admin for American workers. How the situation didn't come to blows I will never know, chalk it up to Canadian complacency.

For you IC guys who don't know, Canadians without Union representation are working with the same kinds of rights Americans worked under forty years ago. It's like the classic quote from Lyndon Johnson; "Like a jacka$$ in the middle of a field in a hailstorm, there's nowhere to go and you just have to take it." Unless you're a Native American, you can't cry foul to the Government of Canada east of Ontario.

PTSD has been recognized in Ontario among people doing this specific kind of work and I'm trying to find out more about it. This guy isn't in Ontario, he needs help, and he can't get it.

I hope to find that article for you guys this weekend if not before.

Love to you all, IC and CN folks alike!

Dieter/

My year of service was nothing compared to the real hero's of any war, the 0311's, (USMC infantry) and the 11-Bravo's, (US Army infantry).
That being said, you're correct, we don't have a clue as to the demands of winter railroading in Canada. When negative remarks are made re: engineers, it's extremely easy to "take offense." You're familiar with the old saw: "The truth hurts?" Could be there's an element of that here? Peace.

My skin's thick, no offense taken, but we have all encountered "Potato Chips" out there in some of these forums. I just don't want to put off anyone from North, or give the wrong impression. There are people in the States, as proven by a CBC program a few years ago, who actually believe that Canadians abandon their Senior Citizens on ice floes when the family feels their usefulness is done.... Snow up to the sill was no exaggeration.

As for speed, well, are any of you going to tell me you've NEVER been aboard a train that didn't break the limit? I'm on one that breaks the limit several times per week. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go!!!! Keep in mind the momentum required to break through a drift that's the size of a house. Without some kind of a running start (potentially breaking the limit), the job isn't going to get done. Thus, the chance of hitting something unseen inside the drift, reducing the plow to splinters and being runover by the locomotive, is significantly increased.

There's a snow drift in Illinois, then there's a drift in Quebec or Manitoba. You guys in Michigan have a better idea of what I'm talking about. Hey you IC/CN guys south of Tennessee..... Ever see a snow plow pushed by a locomotive outside of a magazine?

Anyway, PTSD. Yes, there are people out there who just can't cope for a variety of reasons. Their parents beat them too much, their first date nastily dumped them, or it's purely biochemical without a cure. If you know anything about it, please dump HERE.

Greenwood? Glad you're aboard!

Dieter/