Port Morris on the NYWB/NH

This may be slightly off topic
Here pictured is a series of brackets attached above the lower cord of the plate girder bridge that served the former NH and NYW&B lines over 136 Street. The brackets are also present on the 135th Street Bridge. I didn’t know what purpose these brackets served until I noticed the photo on my desktop showed this bracket type on a Waterbury bridge (circa 1954) supporting pipe lines from a nearby signal tower. The building shown to the right is the former location of the demolished Port Morris Station. Were these steel members for supporting pipe lines that served switching or signaling around the station, and if so where was the tower?

(photo courtesy Google-Paramino)

Port Morris did not have an interlocking tower, per se. Circa 1907, Port Morris should have had a Controlled Manual Block signal station, which would have been S.S. 2 (just as Westchester Avenue, further east, once had S.S. 6). When automatic block signaling was installed, circa 1912 or so, the Controlled Manual Block signal stations were eliminated. Don't know exactly where S.S. 2 would have been (most likely on the Track 1 side), but if a track diagram of that timeframe ever pops up we'll find out. In the meantime, the brackets might very well have been for some sort of pipe run.

chnhrr wrote:This may be slightly off topic...

When you start a thread this way, it probably means you should create a new thread.

Agree that those brackets on the bridge most likely supported a pipe or conduit.

What's interesting is looking at the No. 5 IRT subway bridge over Boston Post Road and seeing the support brackets for the NYWB catenary towers.

-otto-

Statkowski wrote:Port Morris did not have an interlocking tower, per se. Circa 1907, Port Morris should have had a Controlled Manual Block signal station, which would have been S.S. 2 (just as Westchester Avenue, further east, once had S.S. 6). When automatic block signaling was installed, circa 1912 or so, the Controlled Manual Block signal stations were eliminated. Don't know exactly where S.S. 2 would have been (most likely on the Track 1 side), but if a track diagram of that timeframe ever pops up we'll find out. In the meantime, the brackets might very well have been for some sort of pipe run.

Henry, Otto and others - From timetable no. 111 dated April 27, 1930 SS-2 located 14.86 miles from New Rochelle which I
think is west of Hell Gate Bridge. In that timetable all trains to and from the PRR in New York stopped at SS-2 to change
locomotives. According to the same timetable it was 5.28 miles west of Casanova.
It is not possible that there would be two SS-2's on the same line within close range of each other.
Noel Weaver

Noel (and others), the S.S. 2 of which you spoke was the second S.S. 2, installed circa 1918 and OOS circa 1933, located near Sunnyside Junction. The first S.S. 2 was Port Morris, a Controlled Manual Block signal station, installed circa 1907, or earlier, and OOS circa 1912 when Automatic Block signals were installed. The same, more or less, held true with S.S. 1, Harlem River. The first version was a Controlled Manual Block signal station, and the second was built circa 1927 - both were at Harlem River (same location or close enough thereto?), but they were used for slightly different reasons.

Statkowski wrote:Noel (and others), the S.S. 2 of which you spoke was the second S.S. 2, installed circa 1918 and OOS circa 1933, located near Sunnyside Junction. The first S.S. 2 was Port Morris, a Controlled Manual Block signal station, installed circa 1907, or earlier, and OOS circa 1912 when Automatic Block signals were installed. The same, more or less, held true with S.S. 1, Harlem River. The first version was a Controlled Manual Block signal station, and the second was built circa 1927 - both were at Harlem River (same location or close enough thereto?), but they were used for slightly different reasons.

So the first SS 2 pre-dated the Hell Gate Bridge, then. As regards the original question on the thread: would the 136th Street overpass, in its current form, also predate the construction of the Hell Gate?

The 136th Street overpass, and others, were part of the overall enlargement and rebuilding of the Harlem River Branch into a six-track branch, starting circa 1907. Although construction had not yet begun on Hell Gate Bridge, the approaches were constructed in anticipation of a bridge (You don't just say, "Hey, I'm going to build a major bridge tomorrow." Such things take major planning).

From a photo of the Port Morris crossing over the NYC's Port Morris Branch (page 189 bottom, Westchester's Forgotten Railway by Roger Arcara), one sees a six-track thru girder bridge with four of the six tracks occupied (the southernmost two are empty, in anticipation of something). So, in response to your question, the overpass was prior to Hell Gate Bridge. Was part of it subsequently modified when the final bridge design was agreed upon? Most likely.

Thanks all for this interesting background. As a side note, here is a clip from the photo where I noticed the pipe lines being supported along a plate girder bridge in Waterbury. Typically how long could were these pipe runs?

Chuck Crawford

Henry, THANK YOU for clearing me up on SS-2 (1st and 2nd). The picture at Waterbury looks like it may have been taken
from the interior of the tower looking north (timetable direction east) toward the station. It is probably around 1952 or
1953 because the Budd Cars did not get schmered with the McGinnis NH on the front yet and it appears that the cars also
did not have the Hankcock Whistles applied yet. This gives people who are not familiar with the Waterbury of the past an
image as to the importance of Waterbury even in the 50's.
Noel Weaver

Typically how long could were these pipe runs?

However far apart catenary poles are, the ones at S.S. 4, Oak Point went at least two cat pole lengths (600 feet?). The compensation chart on page 49, Mechanical and Electro-Mechanical Interlocking (Chapter XVII, American Railway Signaling Principles and Practices, A.A.R., 1947) shows pipe runs as long as 1,100 feet. I'd say approximately 500 feet would be an acceptable average.

When I worked Burr Road (SS-55, Bridgeport) in the summer of 1964 there was a 4 to 2 crossover east of the tower and east
of the street bridge as well. I can't remember how many structures were there but some old pictures of the period might
reveal that. That crossover was the hardest one in the plant to operate but they did not use it too often. Most often when
they were doing work on track 2 between South Norwalk and Burr Road and every eastbound had to run track 4. In that case
Burr Road would sort them out. In the case of Burr Road the 4 to 2 crossover was the farthest mechanical one from the
tower.
Often the New Haven would electrify portions of an interlocking with electric switches controlled by the old mechanical
machine. Portions of both South Norwalk and Burr Road were in this catagory.
Noel Weaver

Noel, the interlocking diagram shows some, but not all of the cat bridges. But, based on what is shown, I'd wager your 4-to-2 crossover was in the vicinity of 900 feet.

The farther away from the tower, the harder it is, especially in winter, to move anything (switch, lock, or signal) via a pipe connection. The pipes may run on rollers, but even they provide resistance, and in the winter when the grease doesn't lubricate as easily, it's even harder. The real long runs, I'd wager, were generally for signals.

Interestingly, at S.S. 4, Oak Point, you'd think the hardest switch to throw was the farthest out, but it wasn't - it was the second hardest. The hardest one to throw was the double-slip switch almost immediately in front of the tower (two sets of switchpoints, two locks, and one movable-point frog).

Getting back to the Port Morris/NYW&B discussion, here's an interlocking diagram for S.S. 3, Bungay from 1912. Much work is going on. From top to bottom, the tracks are 3-1-2-4 going into Harlem River. Track 1 appears to be out of service with the construction already started for Hell Gate Bridge, and a temporary tower was installed while trackage was being rearranged at S.S. 3.

Noel, I confess I took a stab at the date for the picture in Waterbury. Your observations have probably dated it correctly.

Statkowski thanks for posting the track plans. You have an amazing collection. Do you have any photographs of Casanova Station that you could post? I have photos of most of the stations along the line except that one. I’ve searched and found nothing

The Budd Cars shown at Bank Street Junction, Waterbury were most likely train 157 enroute from Hartford to Bridgeport leaving Waterbury at 5:05 PM. At this time there were three trains between Waterbury and Bridgeport having RPO's and two
trains between Waterbury and Hartford with RPO's. Trains 150 and 157 normally had an RDC-3 for the RPO and left
Bridgeport in the morning and Hartford in the afternoon. You will also notice that the side of the train is in the shadows from the sun in the west. The picture may have been taken from the interior of the tower. The trains through Waterbury
during the period before the 1955 floods were the two round trips out of Winsted and the round trip out of Boston on 131 and
136 in addition to 150 and 157.
I would say without reservation that the mail service in and around Waterbury was far better in those days than it is today.
Finally I did not intend to "hijack" the Port Morris post but I could not resist comments on the interesting picture from
Waterbury in the past.
Noel Weaver

Noel, I wasn't aware of any hijacking. The discussion was piping, and you just added some more information.

chnhrr, can't help on the Casanova pictures. I'm sure someone, somewhere has one, but it's not me. But, since you claim to have most of the stations, how about Baychester, Eastchester Road, or Van Nest? Post them instead.