P32-8BWH retirement

Still out there on the road around these parts; observed a 5XX handling 380 (19), Illinois Zephyr, this morning - and more or less on time.

I may be wrong (it's happened before believe it or not...) but I suspect this retirement rumor is just that - a rumor. Although these locos are not beauty queens or crew favorites, their versatility is just too good to give up.

Tadman wrote:I may be wrong (it's happened before believe it or not...) but I suspect this retirement rumor is just that - a rumor. Although these locos are not beauty queens or crew favorites, their versatility is just too good to give up.

Yeah. Thats the same calling card that allowed the GP40s here in NJT country to side step retirement and throw the F40s/FHs under the bus when the PL42s and ALP45s came in. Its a powerful calling card.

Alcochaser wrote:It would not surprise me.

The B32-8WH (which is their TRUE GE given model name) exemplify the catchphrase "Jack of all trades, but master of none" They are dogs on the road, and are pains to switch with. But will work in ether role.

They are a true dual service locomotive. The only other thing like them were the ex GO GP40TC/GP40PH units.

The only other thing GE produced that was even close to them are the NS B32-8, Which with exception of the HEP system, cab, and gearing. Are pretty much identical to the Amtrak units. They are being retired.

The only thing that may save them is that they are frames with grandfathered emissions. I don't know if you guys have been paying attention, but there are some serious issues with the tier four standards.
The problem is the four axle B series frame cannot handle both the weight of the 12 Cylinder GEVO and the HEP equipment. You already have the weight of the safety cab to consider too. This is the reason that GE went to the Genesis carbody. It's lighter then the frame equipped unit. So that you could cram in the heavier 16FDL and the hep (The 16FDL=The weight of the 12GEVO)

What then do I see happening to the B32-8WH? Well, I don't know if you guys know it or not. The precedent for what will happen is already on the Amtrak roster. Remember those GP40TC/GP40PH units? They got rebuilt to GP38-3H or whatever. This is what I think will happen with the B32-8WH. NO they won't make GP38s with them, but GE has one prototype 6 CYL gevo. It's a straight six block. Which is very light and produces 2300HP. GE was going to market them in ES23DC rebuilds. Four axle GEVOs. This was to compete against the GP22ECO. Then realty set in. Their erecting halls were full of ES44ACs and they had orders out for months. And compared to the scads of GPs out there, by the time GE was thinking of this the Dash 7 GEs were all scrapped, and there are not a lot of dash 8 four axles. So GE literally left this market to EMD and the rebuilders. They chose not to compete. But now you have Amtrak, with the VERY unit intended for this conversion, with a shop that could be used for these conversions. I think you will see the B32-8WH rebuilt to ES23DCH units. Just my two cents.

Given that there are only 20 B32-BWH locomotives in existence I doubt GE is going to step forward and offer the repowering package to Amtrak for a reasonable cost. It seems to me that it would be more likely that the third rail gear would be removed from the units and they would keep their as built FDL 12 cylinder engines, perhaps derated to 2300 HP.
Then again, NS still has 44 Dash 8-32Bs on the roster and they are on a rebuilding/re-powering kick, so maybe GE will sell them on the GEVO Inline 6 package and an Amtrak rebuilding program could be a follow on..

v8interceptor wrote:
Given that there are only 20 B32-BWH locomotives in existence I doubt GE is going to step forward and offer the repowering package to Amtrak for a reasonable cost. It seems to me that it would be more likely that the third rail gear would be removed from the units and they would keep their as built FDL 12 cylinder engines, perhaps derated to 2300 HP.
Then again, NS still has 44 Dash 8-32Bs on the roster and they are on a rebuilding/re-powering kick, so maybe GE will sell them on the GEVO Inline 6 package and an Amtrak rebuilding program could be a follow on..

There is no 3rd rail gear on a P32-8BWH. Why would they derate the engines? If anything they could upgrade these engines to Dash-9 spec with electronic fuel injection, full computer control and that should bring the HP up maybe another 2-300hp which they could use. The stuff NS is using for their rebuild program could very well be used for Amtrak just as well. The two engines are identical except for the HEP alternator.

506 was shuffling 4 Horizon and 1 AMCAFE I around today in Chicago.

Mr. F-40, thanks for sharing the unit # of the earlier observation I reported (I was halfway up my street when I heard what sounded like an Amtrak heading East) . That was the very consist of 380 (19).

ApproachMedium wrote:

v8interceptor wrote:
Given that there are only 20 B32-BWH locomotives in existence I doubt GE is going to step forward and offer the repowering package to Amtrak for a reasonable cost. It seems to me that it would be more likely that the third rail gear would be removed from the units and they would keep their as built FDL 12 cylinder engines, perhaps derated to 2300 HP.
Then again, NS still has 44 Dash 8-32Bs on the roster and they are on a rebuilding/re-powering kick, so maybe GE will sell them on the GEVO Inline 6 package and an Amtrak rebuilding program could be a follow on..

There is no 3rd rail gear on a P32-8BWH. Why would they derate the engines? If anything they could upgrade these engines to Dash-9 spec with electronic fuel injection, full computer control and that should bring the HP up maybe another 2-300hp which they could use. The stuff NS is using for their rebuild program could very well be used for Amtrak just as well. The two engines are identical except for the HEP alternator.

Good point. Rebuilds aren't subject to the same requirements as new power, so rebuilding the P32s with their original 12-7FDL would end up being a lot cheaper than repowering with a 6-GEVO. Rebuilding the units at Juniata might be worthwhile though - Beech Grove is certainly competent enough, but NS Juniana has practice and a current production line.

It'd be nice to have another dozen P32s too. Would it be possible or cost-effective for Amtrak to buy and have Juniata convert some ex-Santa Fe 8-B40Ws?

mtuandrew wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:

v8interceptor wrote:
Given that there are only 20 B32-BWH locomotives in existence I doubt GE is going to step forward and offer the repowering package to Amtrak for a reasonable cost. It seems to me that it would be more likely that the third rail gear would be removed from the units and they would keep their as built FDL 12 cylinder engines, perhaps derated to 2300 HP.
Then again, NS still has 44 Dash 8-32Bs on the roster and they are on a rebuilding/re-powering kick, so maybe GE will sell them on the GEVO Inline 6 package and an Amtrak rebuilding program could be a follow on..

There is no 3rd rail gear on a P32-8BWH. Why would they derate the engines? If anything they could upgrade these engines to Dash-9 spec with electronic fuel injection, full computer control and that should bring the HP up maybe another 2-300hp which they could use. The stuff NS is using for their rebuild program could very well be used for Amtrak just as well. The two engines are identical except for the HEP alternator.

Good point. Rebuilds aren't subject to the same requirements as new power, so rebuilding the P32s with their original 12-7FDL would end up being a lot cheaper than repowering with a 6-GEVO. Rebuilding the units at Juniata might be worthwhile though - Beech Grove is certainly competent enough, but NS Juniana has practice and a current production line.

It'd be nice to have another dozen P32s too. Would it be possible or cost-effective for Amtrak to buy and have Juniata convert some ex-Santa Fe 8-B40Ws?

Amtrak has several F40s and P40s laid up at various locations. The F40s might be a stretch, but if extra power was needed right this very moment, i imagine it would be cheaper to yank a P40 from the storage lines and refurbish that instead.

Extra power was needed on amtrak like yesterday. I think its been better in the last few months but for the last few years with the truck issues on P42s theres been a shortage of power.

ApproachMedium wrote:Extra power was needed on amtrak like yesterday. I think its been better in the last few months but for the last few years with the truck issues on P42s theres been a shortage of power.

Oh I am aware of the power shortage. To my understanding just the other day a doubleheaded regional had to cut off its lead toaster as there was a shortage of electrics in Philly (I read that as they had nothing to power the Eastbound Pennsylvanian that day..), I was speaking more from an as money allows standpoint.

ACeInTheHole wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:Extra power was needed on amtrak like yesterday. I think its been better in the last few months but for the last few years with the truck issues on P42s theres been a shortage of power.

Oh I am aware of the power shortage. To my understanding just the other day a doubleheaded regional had to cut off its lead toaster as there was a shortage of electrics in Philly (I read that as they had nothing to power the Eastbound Pennsylvanian that day..), I was speaking more from an as money allows standpoint.

They probably sent the engine down there from another facility so philly could have it. That happens often because deadheading an engine alone is at 50mph and has to be done under the cover of overnight darkness unless there is an emergency.

Okay, so Amtrak needs extra power. I would be very surprised if F40PHs ever moved under their own power in Amtrak service, so let's do ourselves a favor and forget them. The stored P40s and crash-damaged P42s (how many of either of these are there?), sure, those might be able to be rebuilt, especially if the high-speed diesel order takes a while. I'm talking about a dual-service machine though, since you can't switch Chicago Union Station with a Genesis or an F59 and you can't pinch-hit on the Empire Builder with a genset. Has Amtrak actually given thought to replacing or supplementing these units, or are we just blowing smoke?

mtuandrew wrote:Okay, so Amtrak needs extra power. I would be very surprised if F40PHs ever moved under their own power in Amtrak service, so let's do ourselves a favor and forget them. The stored P40s and crash-damaged P42s (how many of either of these are there?), sure, those might be able to be rebuilt, especially if the high-speed diesel order takes a while. I'm talking about a dual-service machine though, since you can't switch Chicago Union Station with a Genesis or an F59 and you can't pinch-hit on the Empire Builder with a genset. Has Amtrak actually given thought to replacing or supplementing these units, or are we just blowing smoke?

The Charger order is what'll replace these units in revenue service if the options on the start getting drained past the base contract. It's 32 Chargers to start, +75 corridor locomotives on the first set of options, and +150 locomotives on the national options. The base order is supplementing the existing fleets. The corridor options replace all F59's and displace enough P42's from the West Coast and Midwest to retire the P40's, yank any remaining Dash 8's out of daily revenue service, and mothball some of the most ailing P42's as reserves. And then the last options retire the P42's entirely and shorten some 2+ loco trains with beefier power much like the Gennies reduced the power requirements of many trains that used to operate with 2 or 3 F40PH's.

But there's no reason to "retire" the Dash 8's when they've got such limited wear-and-tear compared to the Gennies and F59's. Instead of having to be out on the road every day hauling some revenue trains they can be exclusively assigned to Swiss-army knife service and don't haul passengers except as reserve/protect units. That'll help bolster the systemwide needs. If anything they're going to outlast the P40's, F59's, and possibly even the P42's because they can do other jobs and the other old power can't.