Old NEC Speeds?

Taking what I believe was train 7854 (the 6:07pm weekend train out of Metuchen), we were scheduled to arrive in NYP at 6:52. It was an express train, a set of Arrow IIIs.

We were at top speed for most of the express run (it's hard to believe that we only got up to 80). We were at EWR by 6:21. Despite sitting there for several minutes, and then spending several more minutes at Newark Penn (on Track A, quite unusual), we made it to New York at least five minutes early. It couldn't have taken more than 10-12 minutes from NWK to NYP.

I say all this to ask pre-1999, before Hamilton, the EWR station and Secaucus, how long was it on average from TRE-NYP on a local, an express and a super-express? I don't have any schedules from back then, so if anyone has that info, I'd appreciate it.

(Note: I'll be away for a couple of days, but I will read the responses. Thanks in advance.)

PRR January 5, 1941:
Lv Trenton 6:19AM, Arrive NYP 7:25, stops at Newark Penn only
Local: Lv Trenton 9:54AM, arrive NYP 11:30, skips Stelton, Menlo Park, North Rahway, South Elizabeth, and South Street Newark (so the schedule is similar to the pre-Hamilton and EWR service).

From July 3, 1977 Conrail timetable:
Leave Trenton 6:51 AM, Arrive NYP 7:46AM making only Princeton JCT and Newark Penn
Local: Lv Trenton 8:55AM, Arrive NYP 10:12, all stops except Edison and N. Elizabeth (Sat/Sun train)

NJT, May 23, 1992:
Lv Trenton 6:46AM, Arrive NYP 7:50AM, stops Princeton JCT and Newark Penn.
Local: Lv Trenton 9:00A, arrive NYP 10:17, all stops except N. Elizabeth and N. Rahway.

NJT, April 14, 1996, Revised May 1996:
Lv Trenton 6:50 AM, Arrive NYP 7:57, stops at Princeton JCT and Newark Penn.
Lv Trenton 8:21AM, Arrive NYP 9:19, stops at Princeton JCT and Newark Penn
Local: Lv Trenton 9:00AM, Arrive NYP 10:20, all stops except N. Elizabeth

Almost impossible to believe only 3 mins are added most places. My guess is that now, things are just never on time.

jnewman wrote: From July 3, 1977 Conrail timetable:
Leave Trenton 6:51 AM, Arrive NYP 7:46AM making only Princeton JCT and Newark Penn

1977 - new Arrow III's burning it up?

Wow, that time is pretty dang good!!! 55 minutes to go about 58 miles - niiiiiiiiiice thats like an equipment move!!

Remember though, back then, there may have been other stations where the trains stopped (not this one in particular) but the stretch between Princeton Jct and Trenton is high speed - adding Hamilton station in there really killed times inbetween Trenton and PJ.

Also, EWR and SEC really killed times east of Elizabeth - I have a NEC schedule from I think its May of 2001 - it was something like 21 minutes between Elizabeth and NYP - about 6 minutes to Newark Penn i believe, and 15 to NYP. Most times NYP-NWK were about 15 minutes scheduled, with a few a few minutes less, as late as 2001. That schedule is packed away somewhere inconvenient now, but the next time Im around it, ill dig it out.

Also, times pre 1996 didn't include Midtown Direct trains, which sometimes cause slowdowns around Swift. When in 1996 did Midtown direct start service? Those times JNewman posted from that 1996 schedule might already include some fluff for Swift - a timetable from 1994 or 1995 might be a minute or two shorter.

this shows that as usual, existing passengers are a victim of service expansion. Talk to any long time NEC or NJCL passenger, and they will share their feelings quite openly about service over the past 10 years - for other lines, it has improved, but for NEC and NJCL it has suffered tremendously. Of course, increased ridership, in particular on the NEC, but not so much on the Coast Line, has added more trains and service, but even that has hurt schedule times. (which is probably why they aren't having any meetings for the THE tunnel down Central Jersey way).

Jtgshu wrote:Remember though, back then, there may have been other stations where the trains stopped (not this one in particular) but the stretch between Princeton Jct and Trenton is high speed - adding Hamilton station in there really killed times inbetween Trenton and PJ.

Years ago, Arrows were allowed 100 and did it. I remember what was probably the only time I rode non-Amtrak east from Trenton in the late '70s and standing up front and seeing the speedometer at 103 between Trenton and PJ. And back then, most trains were allowed just 10 minutes and were moving out of PJ at the published departure time.

The sooner the run down junkpile Arrow III's are retired and replaced by something decent, and something with at least a 100 mph top speed, the better!

Actually, a thorough rebuild, done right this time, would be fine too. But they really are due for either a rebuild or replacement.

Jtgshu wrote:Also, EWR and SEC really killed times east of Elizabeth - I have a NEC schedule from I think its May of 2001 - it was something like 21 minutes between Elizabeth and NYP - about 6 minutes to Newark Penn i believe, and 15 to NYP.

I don't have a pre-airport schedule on me, and I'm not even sure if I have any around at home, but I'm pretty sure Elizabeth to Newark Penn was 3 mins without the airport.

E-44 wrote:

jnewman wrote: From July 3, 1977 Conrail timetable:
Leave Trenton 6:51 AM, Arrive NYP 7:46AM making only Princeton JCT and Newark Penn

1977 - new Arrow III's burning it up?

Train 3814 started around 1969-- 52 minutes Trenton to NY, stopping only at Newark. They soon added Princ Jct and made the schedule 55 minutes. But for tough schedules it's hard to beat the 1960s Trenton to Philadelphia: 35 minutes Trenton to departure from North Philadelphia, including 11 stops in the 27.9 miles. Then 10 minutes more to Suburban Sta.

ryanov wrote:I'm pretty sure Elizabeth to Newark Penn was 3 mins without the airport.

It's about 5.3 miles.

According to my 1992 timetable, Elizabeth to Newark without a stop at N. Elizabeth was 7 minutes on the locals. I have an ETT, and from Elmora to Newark Penn on the express was about 8 minutes. NWK to NYP was 14-18 minutes.
This is pretty much the same on all the timetables back to the 1941 PRR one.
The current timetable allows 10 or 11 minutes for Elizabeth to NWK, with the airport stop and 21-23 minutes for NWK to NYP with Secaucus.

And I started riding these trains as a regular commuter 11 years ago, and it seems much longer now than it did then, even if it is only 5-7 minutes longer in real life. It just seems that nothing is ever on time in the AM rush, everything always seems to get into NYP about five minutes late, on top of the 5 minutes longer schedule.
Oh, well.

In 2000, I could set my watch by the NEC trains. If I told my dad, "please pick me up in Newark Penn at 8:06," I'd come strolling out that door at 8:06 (unless the stairs took longer that day).

Nowadays, I can count on the weekend trains to all be 10 mins behind. What 10:12 train? I'm not sure it's ever arrived before 10:20 or so anyway. This means that if I wanna transfer to LIRR, 15 mins for a transfer is pushing it. Why should it be? It's akin to transferring to a train on a different track. However, if you can nearly count on your train being 10 mins late and 5 mins can be eaten up crowd flow problems, you can't catch that train. That's nonsense.

Also, times pre 1996 didn't include Midtown Direct trains, which sometimes cause slowdowns around Swift.

The last couple of times I rode the train into NYP (some time ago), we were down to a crawl through Swift. Ridiculous.

Thanks a lot, everybody.

I'd just add 2 things. First, despite the times being added, my trip last weekend shows that even w/ HAM & EWR, a train w/ a top speed of 8-mph with a clear shot @ NYC can still make it to NYP early (which means, of course, that there's a good degree of padding, although that's somewhat understandable).

Second, I've been on every commuter rail system from Boston to DC, and although I haven't yet been on a Comet VI, thus far I can say that nothing beats a Jersey Arrow.

8 mph? I'm misunderstanding that somehow (or learning something I've always suspected about NJT's schedules).