• Oil train disaster in Lac-Mégantic, Québec 07-06-2013

  • Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).
Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).

Moderator: MEC407

  by Backshophoss
 
As seen on the Bloomberg crawl tonight,FRA looking into how crude oil is handled in rail tranport,in light of the wreck at
Lac-Megantic. This might spread to include unit fuel trains(oil or gas) in time.
The entire industry is "walking on eggshells" when it comes to transporting Haz-Mat materials right now,
not wanting to prod the FRA into creating unwanted regs to foul up the process.
  by Carroll
 
gokeefe wrote:Given the context we could just step back and say that when a North American railroad chief makes statements such as these it is tantamount to an admission of incompetence, i.e. they are admitting they are no longer capable, or no longer know how to run the railroad to handle all cargoes manifested over their lines. That seems to be what has happened in this situation. It also appears to imply that he never knew how to do this in the first place, i.e. he can't or couldn't imagine what he should have been doing differently to handle the unit trains of oil safely or he never fully understood or attempted to understand the risks inherent in such.

Overall that's a pretty bad showing for someone who has as much experience as he does. It makes me wonder how interested he's been in doing his job lately and in supervising the company. It also makes me wonder how many "near miss" incidents have occurred on Rail World properties recently.
I have to disagree with your interpretation of Mr. Burkhardts statement. He isn't admitting they are no longer capable or no longer know how to run the railroad nor does the notion of incompetence enter into it. For the situation MMA finds itself in having another tank train derailment with loss of product, how would a company in bankruptcy protection pay for clean-up and remediation of the environment. Therefore it is not worth the cost however, it is quite a loss of income. Now I not sure what you mean by he never knew how to do it in the first place but if you're referring to running a crude train, the crude train is not new. MMA has been running them for about a year. Wondering how many "near miss" incidents that have occurred on Rail World property is a Red Herring. You're casting suspicion based on nothing.

I find it rather incredible that all the things that have been said about transporting oil, the MMA and it's CEO has all snowballed from, what it appears happened, barring a mechanical failure, 1 employee did not follow the procedures in tying down a train, which, was not something new to Mr. Harding or the MMA as they had done it many times in the past year - 2 to 3 times a week according the the taxi driver and hotel Harding stayed at. 79 people killed in Spain from and engineer speeding but, the railroad isn't considered an unsafe railway nor is it's CEO being beat up in public. The one time in 10yrs the driver didn't break.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Here is Wall Street Journal reportage of the developemnt Mr. Backshop immediately notes:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... car+safety" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brief passage:

  • The Federal Railroad Administration plans to start asking shipping companies to supply testing data they use to classify their crude-oil shipments, saying it is concerned that some shipments are being transported in tank cars that aren't safe enough.

    In a letter to American Petroleum Institute CEO Jack Gerard last week, the FRA said it is investigating whether some crude shipments contain chemicals—possibly from the hydraulic-fracturing process used to extract it—that make them more hazardous than their classification indicates.
  by KEN PATRICK
 
cowford- these so-called 'prohibitions' are 'violated ' every day. i read stb filings and decisions . never saw anything remotely related to these issues. i experienced, in real operations, several of the aar 'prohibitions' by several short lines and 3 class i's.
look at stb history. find one that covers no service for non-payment of freight invoices. i'm not jaded. simply experienced.and look at aar's budget. why are they in washington? ken patrick
  by ExCon90
 
Mr. Patrick, go back and read what Jim Boylan posted. The AAR did not "write" anything -- the list merely summarizes what is already established law. Regulations regarding withholding of service for nonpayment of freight charges go well back into ICC days and were not changed by Staggers. A railroad cannot refuse to provide service for nonpayment of charges for past shipments. It is entitled to require payment up front for any future shipments, but that does not constitute an embargo -- it is simply a matter of extending credit, which railroads are not required to do in the first place, although they are permitted to, and customarily do.
  by gokeefe
 
Carroll wrote:I have to disagree with your interpretation of Mr. Burkhardts statement. He isn't admitting they are no longer capable or no longer know how to run the railroad nor does the notion of incompetence enter into it. For the situation MMA finds itself in having another tank train derailment with loss of product, how would a company in bankruptcy protection pay for clean-up and remediation of the environment. Therefore it is not worth the cost however, it is quite a loss of income. Now I not sure what you mean by he never knew how to do it in the first place but if you're referring to running a crude train, the crude train is not new. MMA has been running them for about a year. Wondering how many "near miss" incidents that have occurred on Rail World property is a Red Herring. You're casting suspicion based on nothing.

I find it rather incredible that all the things that have been said about transporting oil, the MMA and it's CEO has all snowballed from, what it appears happened, barring a mechanical failure, 1 employee did not follow the procedures in tying down a train, which, was not something new to Mr. Harding or the MMA as they had done it many times in the past year - 2 to 3 times a week according the the taxi driver and hotel Harding stayed at.
I would disagree that the situation appears to indicate a mistake or omission by the engineer. There are too many other variables at this time and too many other people who touched that train after his shift to reliably conclude that.

In regards to the CEO I believe the notion of incompetence is implied. I agree he did not explicitly say he was incompetent nor has TSB Canada said such. That is very much my own conjecture based on a series of circumstances which to me indicate at a minimum a lack of good supervision or oversight of company operations by the Board Chair (Burkhardt).

Burkhardt's statement didn't make any mention of bankruptcy either and was clearly a discussion of potential future operations. In making such a statement, as others have pointed out, there are possible implied violations of common carrier obligations. Quite simply describing a freight class as "isn't worth the trouble" strongly refutes the notion that this individual respects the obligation of his railroad to accept all freight for movement over his lines. In this case Burkhart is saying he either can't handle, or doesn't know how to handle this kind of cargo in a manner that is profitable or operationally feasible for his company. I further believe he was saying this without consideration to his own situation but making a general statement of conditions he expected post-cleanup.

In this case and in this context (as I took it) that to me seems to be a general declaration of a lack of capacity to take certain actions. Given that this is Burkhardt's assessment personally I would describe this is an implication of incompetence or a general inability to perform certain functions or the lack of certain faculties.
  by Zeke
 
I think Ed's statement that the MMA oil traffic is "more trouble than it's worth" may stem from increased insurance premiums. My friend owns a small trucking business 12 power units, 45 trailers and 20 employees. He gave up soliciting Haz-Mat traffic several years ago account the minimum 5 million dollars insurance requirement per power unit and the fact chemical companies would not pay him a compensatory rate on said traffic. Big shippers with large volumes of freight constantly play trucking companies and to some degree railroads off each other looking for lower freight rates and special discounts. You can observe this game with Irving and their oil traffic.

The deregulation of trucking basically deregulated the rate making abilities of the carriers and put the shippers in the position of dictating what they will pay to have their freight moved....take it or leave it ! The shippers and manufacturing associations are constantly lobbying the feds to permit other rail carriers to access captive shippers like big chemical companies. Dow chemical was moaning about the U.P.'s high freight rates and was pushing the AAR and some Senators to allow " Competitive access".... ie; allow BNSF trackage rights on 20 miles of U.P's iron to come down and switch the plant,of course this master plan had one design, start a rate war between the two railroads. I laughed when some U.P. exec said, "We will agree to that when Dow Chemical allows DuPont to come in their plant on second shift and manufacture DuPont products in the Dow plant."
  by Cowford
 
"these so-called 'prohibitions' are 'violated ' every day. i read stb filings and decisions . never saw anything remotely related to these issues. i experienced, in real operations, several of the aar 'prohibitions' by several short lines and 3 class i's."

Perhaps you are missing the point here. As an example, de-marketing unprofitable business is not "wrong" (depending on how it's done); using the embargo process to do so is. If I'm off-base, I look forward to your many examples of railroads issuing embargoes in violation of the aforementioned prohibitions.


"look at aar's budget. why are they in washington?"

Because they are an industry association, and an important responsibility they have is government relations/lobbying. Nobody is denying that. (Dang, if it wasn't for them, the industry would have much stiffer headwinds defending itself against folks like you lobbying for legislation requiring railroads to price on a cost basis while you price on a market basis!) But again, you are missing the point: It is much more than just a lobbying group. Perhaps you are not familiar with the numerous technical, equipment, accounting, information technology, hazmat, etc., etc. committees governed by the AAR and its members. Or Railinc. Or TTCI.
  by JimBoylan
 
Gilbert B Norman Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:11 pm wrote: http://www.businessinsurance.com/articl ... |163|76|64

To save everyone a step, here is the headline:
Insurer XL at the scene of deadly Quebec train derailment, explosion
Here is the insurer's website:
http://www.xlgroup.com/insurance
An excerpt from the above article:
Montreal, Maine & Atlantic said in a Sunday statement that the locomotive’s shutdown after the departure of the engineer may have resulted in the release of air brakes on the locomotive that was holding it in place, although a governmental investigation largely prevented the company from completing its own investigation.
So, in this twist on what happened, the lead locomotive's air brakes were preventing the train from running away?
And XL is also an Xcess Liability insurance company.
  by Cowford
 
I'd take that news report with a grain of salt. It states the cars were "pressurized" and implied that the locomotives "decoupled" prior to the train rolling down the hill.
  by KEN PATRICK
 
cowford your posts are form over substance. i ran my prototype in the HAL consist at pueblo. spent many days there on structural issues. worked solo for a few hours on UMLER at the prior 50th st location updating our fleet from 263 to 286. used Steel Roads to manage our fleet. familiar with TRAINS 2, the national railcar tracking system.
Have you ever dealt with railcar billing and collections? I use a phrase when discussing railroads with shippers and railroaders. 'when sitting in your auto at a crossing watching a train go by, consider that 1/2 of the cars are going the wrong way'. probably a small overstatement. railcar loads/empties tracking is a huge problem. Because we ran a unique tracking system, our railroads called us for billing information. Railroad billing is a complicated process. It cannot handle payments in advance nor cod's. The collection club was service. Ken Patrick
  by Cowford
 
Well Ken, based on your first paragraph, you're confirming that AAR is a lot more than lobbying group. Thanks for that!

Honestly, I don't know where you're going with the second. Yes, I have worked with railroad billing and collections. And while it's probably better than it's ever been, I acknowledge it's far from perfect. But what that has to do with the subject at hand escapes me.
  by Carroll
 
gokeefe wrote:I would disagree that the situation appears to indicate a mistake or omission by the engineer. There are too many other variables at this time and too many other people who touched that train after his shift to reliably conclude that.
I believe it still comes down to the engineer. Even if the fire department somehow released the engines hand break after shutting down the engine, that would still leave the car brakes to hold the train IF the engineer followed procedure. That's what the brake test was all about. Once the handbrakes on the cars were set the engineer released the engines hand brake and under limited power tested the train to see if it would move but, we don't know if he actually did the full test or not. His answer to the taxi driver about the smoking engine sounded more like a man fed up with management and divested himself of any blame if something did happen using the words he did. I can't see the MOW guys actually touching the train really. And the FD did report to MMA what they had done and no red flags came up from them.
In regards to the CEO I believe the notion of incompetence is implied. I agree he did not explicitly say he was incompetent nor has TSB Canada said such. That is very much my own conjecture based on a series of circumstances which to me indicate at a minimum a lack of good supervision or oversight of company operations by the Board Chair (Burkhardt).
I still can't equate that to the 2+- hrs at Nantes, especially, the successful 2 or 3 tie downs a week over the past +-year.
Burkhardt's statement didn't make any mention of bankruptcy either and was clearly a discussion of potential future operations. In making such a statement, as others have pointed out, there are possible implied violations of common carrier obligations. Quite simply describing a freight class as "isn't worth the trouble" strongly refutes the notion that this individual respects the obligation of his railroad to accept all freight for movement over his lines. In this case Burkhart is saying he either can't handle, or doesn't know how to handle this kind of cargo in a manner that is profitable or operationally feasible for his company. I further believe he was saying this without consideration to his own situation but making a general statement of conditions he expected post-cleanup.

In this case and in this context (as I took it) that to me seems to be a general declaration of a lack of capacity to take certain actions. Given that this is Burkhardt's assessment personally I would describe this is an implication of incompetence or a general inability to perform certain functions or the lack of certain faculties.
Quite true he didn't mention bankruptcy but, my question "For the situation MMA finds itself in, having another tank train derailment with loss of product, how would a company in bankruptcy protection pay for clean-up and remediation of the environment?" still stands and again it still stands for your interpretation of his statements like "isn't worth the trouble". To me, that statement was made by a man, possibly suffering form PST, who has the deaths of 49 people on his mind plus, keeping his railroad going for the people that work there and the small communities that depend on the MMA for a lot of their livelihood plus, who has and is being beat up by everyone he sees a way to avoid another beating, on the off chance there is another crude train incident, and that's not to haul crude. I guess we'll see if after some sober second thought he will change his mind or, the trustees will change it for him, but then, I don't know how much control he will have over deciding what the railroad will/won't haul, while under protection.

Hauling Crude oil is a proven money maker for them and L-M is basically an anomaly, in that, the incident didn't happen while the train was traversing the rails at the time or words to that effect.
  by nomis
 
Does anyone here actually know the SOP for determining a "sufficent number of handbrakes" that is required?
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