NS through trains over the WNYP

My thoughts:

OK, the former Erie (WNYP and the Southern Tier Line) will never be as important to NS as the former Pennsy main, which serves more industry and passes through bigger cities. Having said that, the former Erie has proven values as an alternate route to northern New Jersey. NS has already run detour trains on the former Erie without incident, and runs coal trains on the same route now. I think the former Erie (and former LV/CNJ) will become increasingly valuable to NS as traffic levels grow. Just guessing here- most likely NS will use the WNYP as a gateway for lower priority traffic. It makes more sense to do that than relay the #2 mainline on the Horseshoe Curve, since the track on the former Erie is in good working order (and even improving) west of Hornell. I doubt we'll ever see 60-70 mph on the WNYP, but 40-50 mph seems realistic someday.

Those who dismiss the WNYP as a useless through route fail to see the bigger picture.

Agreed, Matt. And the WNYP/Southern Tier offers some flexibility too for slower trains. There is a ton of room at Sayre for some flat switching and as another way into Scranton area should things from Binghamton south foul up.

It'd be kind of cool to see NYSW/WNYP work together to handle some trains from NJ out to PA or Ohio via the former Erie. For example, C&D trains operating as far as possible via that routing would benefit both, and ultimately NS to the detriment of CSX. As I understand it C&D/garbage trains are creepers, so if they went to a different routing the Pennsy or Water Level could gain some capacity by losing slower trash trains.

That's assuming there'd be a way for NS to get such trains west out of Corry. Not sure of the geography there.

JoeCollege, good read on things.

40mph is absolutely a goal for the WNYP.

Dave Becker

It'd be kind of cool to see NYSW/WNYP work together to handle some trains from NJ out to PA or Ohio via the former Erie. For example, C&D trains operating as far as possible via that routing would benefit both, and ultimately NS to the detriment of CSX.

The state of NJ is trying to close down all the C&D facilities throughout this great state! Since the railroads are governed by the STB, the state can not get around this loophole, however they are trying to pass legislation for towns to have power over the railroads to get around this loophole! The state already shut down 3 facilities for not having sprinklers and it has had a serious affect on NYSW traffic patterns!

Unfortunately, C&D trains may not have much of a future if the state and the local NIMBYS get their way!

Matt:

FYI... There are currently three tracks on Horseshoe Curve, out of an original four. I believe there are still five tracks up at Cresson. Although NS does have congestion on the Pennsy Main, things will have to get really bad before they start looking at alternatives like utilizing other routings.

BWP

The NS route from NJ to Chicago might be the shortest route but it doesnt seem at all like it could be high speed rail. There are so many mountains, curves, towns and yards they have to negotiate on that route that I'm not sure that even relaying a 4th track on horseshoe curve could solve their problems. Add to that the fact that they are constantly using pushers and you can see how trains become very congested. Now there are two things that could happen from here. NS could continue to "maintain" and let the future traffic go to the roads. This would cause the Southern Tier to become a bike trail. Or they could aggressively go after new business and expand their PRR capacity, use the Tier/WNYP and railroading can actually compete with trucking in the region.

The NS route between NJ and Chicago is combination of LV, RDG, PRR, and NYC mainlines. The only grade of substance where intermodal trains often require helpers is the track crossing the Allegheny mountains between Altoona and Pittsburgh. The route is pretty flat (and straight) west of Cleveland, and pretty flat with a few minor grades east of Altoona. The route passes four class major yards at Allentown, Harrisburg, Conway, and Elkhart and is at least double tracked all the way between Reading and Chicago.

I don't think what's left of the ex-EL main is superior in terms of grades, curvature, and track capacity.

johnpbarlow wrote:The NS route between NJ and Chicago is combination of LV, RDG, PRR, and NYC mainlines. The only grade of substance where intermodal trains often require helpers is the track crossing the Allegheny mountains between Altoona and Pittsburgh. The route is pretty flat (and straight) west of Cleveland, and pretty flat with a few minor grades east of Altoona. The route passes four class major yards at Allentown, Harrisburg, Conway, and Elkhart and is at least double tracked all the way between Reading and Chicago.

I don't think what's left of the ex-EL main is superior in terms of grades, curvature, and track capacity.

I never said the ex-EL was superior to this route... far from it. I'm saying that the ex NYC is higher speed and smoother than the PRR and because of this, NS could have some problems when competing with CSX. They may also have problems as traffic grows (unless it goes to the roads) getting their trains through in a timely fashion and keeping their customers happy.

West of Cleveland is really not an issue as the plan is to keep the trains on the ex-CR route there anyway. Though I'm not an expert on trains out in that region.

The Erie route was not necessarily superior, PRR I am sure was shorter and the NYC had fewer grades but was longer. The Erie did have the lowest crossing of the Alleghenies but had many ups and downs, some single tracking in key locations, and did not hit the big towns like Buffalo and Cleveland and Pittsburg on the main. But it did have the clearances for high and wide loads thanks to its heritage of 6ft guage and double track, especially in the east. At the end of the EL its 99/100 trains mostly for UPS, were beating PC times on any route between NY and Chi. But how much longer could the track and bridges take the beating without an infusion of money is anybody's guess. EL people from Terminal Tower to the cinders proved they did have a viable route and railroad. Other things just got in the way. MARC-EL? Oh, how I wish they tried it. But since they didn't, we are stuck with history and must deal with the problems from today's perspectives and not what was.

What does restoration of the Erie mainline have to do with NS running trains over the WNYP?

Otto Vondrak wrote:What does restoration of the Erie mainline have to do with NS running trains over the WNYP?

That was sarcasm, right? You surely can't be serious, especially if you've followed the thread at all.

I know you take moderating very seriously, and obviously conversations that drift into oblique tangents rightfully must be questioned, but I think I laid out pretty clearly where all this came from and went and how it makes sense to discuss it from an Erie perspective.

If I am so obtuse that I can't understand why this is wrong, I sincerely wish that someone would advise me. We're discussing operations on a line that was once Erie and trying to use that knowledge along with some revisionist history to figure out how the past can influence the present- how if things never did change or if the present could be altered the WNYP can then use that former Erie line to run overhead or low priority traffic for NS.

Seriously not playing devil's advocate here, but I really can't understand the heavy handed moderating. I think the big picture is important here- to forget the past is to lose both eyes, as Solzhenitsyn said.

Otto Vondrak wrote:What does restoration of the Erie mainline have to do with NS running trains over the WNYP?

Any traffic on the WNY&P is essentially traffic returning to the old Erie Main. The WNY&P is logistically situated so as to possibly be another east-west route, a route Conrail decimated and dismembered (don't want it, don't want anybody else to have it) in favor of PRR and NYC routes. Now that capacity is tight on CSX's Water Level Route and NS's Keystone Corridor, this former Erie route, connected as it is to the Southern Tier Line at Hornell, could be a factor in moving excess traffic out to Meadville and Erie, PA, as well as into Ohio and CSX and NS line connections. It is an integeral part of any discussion of east west traffic discussion, WNY&P operations, NS and even CSX trains and operations.

It always seems to me that any discussion of the Tier degrades into some fantasy discussion of bringing back the Erie mainline as a New York-Chicago route. As far as I know, the WNYP is not part of NS plan's to do anything of the sort. Unless I am wrong and missed something?

I think one problem is that no one knows what NS would or would not do with the WNYP. Those who know certainly haven't posted that knowledge, nor do they need to.

I think there is no question that the WNYP *could* be important, but as of now, it isn't, and I'm quite certain that the WNYP will have little to no benefit to CSX.

Dave Becker

I'll agree with what Dave said. We just don't know.

What I do know is that we have discussed and debated the viability of the Southern Tier and the Erie main in the past... I'm just too lazy to go find it right now.

I think it's pointless to debate what "could" happen. As long as you all don't flame each other... carry on.