Northeast Regional 188 - Accident In Philadelphia

Gerry6309 wrote:Remember: Back in the 70s, smaller windows meant smaller targets. Heaving rocks at trains was a popular teen pastime back then.

And the less the passengers had to see of America's tired, crumbling, malaise-era cityscapes, the better.

It's the same reason why even though it was built with water on three sides, the New England Aquarium was built with no windows in any of the galleries, so the visitors wouldn't have to see the then-disgusting harbor to distract them from the turtles and the seals.

The long distance trains will be capable of NE Regional speeds once the Heritage equipment is retired, so that isn't the issue. They need a dedicated line for the high speed trains.

Trainlawyer wrote:

EDM5970 wrote:Could they run the Florida trains up the old Reading, behind diesels? I don't know the specific track layouts, but get on the RDG in Philly, get off at Woodborne, take the freight line into Morrisville, then over the bridge into Trenton? You would need diesels (with HEP) between Woodborne and Morrisville/Trenton. Using them from Philly to Trenton would also keep them off SEPTA's catenary and subs, which may not be of sufficient capacity for that much increased traffic. It would require cooperation between Amtrak, SEPTA, CSX and NJT, but should be a possible solution..

This is something of a digression but this incident does again show a need for redundant routings. I've argued before that the Florida and deep south trains do not belong on an allegedly high speed line nor do any of the off-corridor trains which do not fit the speed curve for the N E Regional or Acela schedule matrices. In long term capital investment this means doubling the number of mainline tracks on the corridor and putting them somewhere else. In a more perfect world Amtrak would be detouring exactly as EDM suggests only it would be under wire all the way because the systems would be connected.

In the short term the most expeditious way of handling the Florida trains, the Crescent, and so on is to move any trainsets which are stranded in New York to Philadelphia on on either NS or CSX (or even down the trolley line from Trenton during the freight window) and operate dedicated motor coaches from NYP, NWK and TTN for the through passengers and simply originate and terminate the trains at 30th Street. As it is

I will concur with the comments concerning the immediate availability of field trauma care. Beyond that, having read damned near everything that has been been on the wire since 2200 last night and looked at a few hundred pictures, I think I now know less than I did when I heard the first report. There are enough discordant elements that I think we should all be very careful about the kind of apples to oranges to cantaloupes single element analysis that is so easy to do with an event such as this. While there may well be a last clear chance, there is never a single answer.

GME

AP is reporting that analysis of the surveillance video indicates the train was traveling at 107 mph, pretty much exactly what the earlier tweet stated.

Yes it's not an NTSB report, but it's about as good as proof as your going to get as to what happened. Now to figure out if it's engineer or hardware error.

The speed reports are astounding ... Amtrak's tracker might have been right all along, with its last reported speed prior to loss of data ...

In an eerie coincidence, #94 was going 108 at the time of impact at Chase.

ChemiosMurphy wrote:AP is reporting that analysis of the surveillance video indicates the train was traveling at 107 mph, pretty much exactly what the earlier tweet stated.

Yes it's not an NTSB report, but it's about as good as proof as your going to get as to what happened. Now to figure out if it's engineer or hardware error.

Are there no alerts in the cab when one exceeds the limit? I had thought that they have had systems in place so that the loco "knows" what the speed limit is - I thought I saw pictures from the cab of an AEM7 that shows the current speed limit and the signal aspect.

Then again, this is one of the new locomotives, and that introduces all sorts of other variables into the mix.

NTSB confirms that speed was 100+ mph:

@NTSB: NTSB confirms preliminary data shows #Amtrak train speed exceeded 100 mph prior to derailment. Further calibrations are being conducted.

https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/598566397241913346?s=09

Seeing reports that one of the support pillars for the pedestrian bridge may have been wiped out ...

If that amfleet hit that, that would be considerably sturdier than a catenary upright ...

could explain the extreme damage; it wouldn't be all that different that striking a bridge abutment ...

JackRussell wrote:

ChemiosMurphy wrote:AP is reporting that analysis of the surveillance video indicates the train was traveling at 107 mph, pretty much exactly what the earlier tweet stated.

Yes it's not an NTSB report, but it's about as good as proof as your going to get as to what happened. Now to figure out if it's engineer or hardware error.

Are there no alerts in the cab when one exceeds the limit? I had thought that they have had systems in place so that the loco "knows" what the speed limit is - I thought I saw pictures from the cab of an AEM7 that shows the current speed limit and the signal aspect.

Then again, this is one of the new locomotives, and that introduces all sorts of other variables into the mix.

Even simple ATC systems will give you an overspeed alert. Also there's an alerter that goes off whenever the engineer doesn't interact with the train for a set period of time and of its not acknowledged the train goes into emergency.

Photos show that only the engine went North of the pedestrian bridge, the rest of the train stopped before going under it. At least 2 Amtrak catenary poles and at least 1 ConRail catneary pole were hit by the train. The 2nd car, which rolled more than half way over, has a Conrail pole in its roof.

Detailed story from Baltimore Sun

Amtrak train in deadly derailment passed through Baltimore

Before Philadelphia derailment, Amtrak train had scheduled stops in BWI, Baltimore, Wilmington.
.
The derailment in Philadelphia of an Amtrak passenger train headed north from Washington and through multiple stops in Maryland left more than 200 people injured and killed seven.

In a statement on the derailment Tuesday, Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said her "heart aches" for the passengers who were on the train.
"Amtrak service is a way of life for so many of our city residents, as well as visitors from all across the Northeast who commute to, from and through our city every day," Rawlings-Blake said. "My prayers are with the families of those who lost their lives in this tragedy. We will support the recovery efforts in every way possible as authorities work to identity the cause of the crash."

Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, who called the scene of the derailment "an absolute disastrous mess" on Tuesday night, said Wednesday that the train's black box had been recovered and was being analyzed.

Amtrak said rail service on the busy Northeast Corridor between New York and Philadelphia had been stopped. Nutter, citing the mangled train tracks and downed wires, said there was "no circumstance under which there would be any Amtrak service this week through Philadelphia."

The impact on the East Coast's broader rail network was unclear. Rob Doolittle, a spokesman for railroad CSX Transportation, said the company had offered assistance to Amtrak but that its own mainline was unaffected and it was not experiencing any significant delays through Philadelphia.

litz wrote: If that amfleet hit that, that would be considerably sturdier than a catenary upright ...

The supports for the pedestrian bridge appear to be pretty lightweight, not that it matters as the train didn't actually hit any of them.

ekt8750 wrote:

JackRussell wrote:

ChemiosMurphy wrote:AP is reporting that analysis of the surveillance video indicates the train was traveling at 107 mph, pretty much exactly what the earlier tweet stated.

Yes it's not an NTSB report, but it's about as good as proof as your going to get as to what happened. Now to figure out if it's engineer or hardware error.

Are there no alerts in the cab when one exceeds the limit? I had thought that they have had systems in place so that the loco "knows" what the speed limit is - I thought I saw pictures from the cab of an AEM7 that shows the current speed limit and the signal aspect.

Then again, this is one of the new locomotives, and that introduces all sorts of other variables into the mix.

Even simple ATC systems will give you an overspeed alert. Also there's an alerter that goes off whenever the engineer doesn't interact with the train for a set period of time and of its not acknowledged the train goes into emergency.

So...if the cab signals were functioning as they should would this be akin to the Spuytien Duyvil derailment on Metro North where there may have been too big a gap in the signal configuration in the immediate vicinity of the curve for the cab signals to apply or sustain the enforcement on the speed restriction (i.e. poor signal layout leaving a loophole for overspeeding)? I'm trying to wrap brain around how how the ATC could even permit that.

Not to mention the same PRR cab signal tech was also there in 1943 when that Frankford wreck happened.

Even simple ATC systems will give you an overspeed alert. Also there's an alerter that goes off whenever the engineer doesn't interact with the train for a set period of time and of its not acknowledged the train goes into emergency.

A penalty brake application and an emergency application are two different things. Not acknowledging the alerter will give you a penalty application. This is recoverable without having to stop the train (on Amtrak at least). An emergency application requires the train to stop to recover from.

USRailFan wrote:
- I am far from convinced that a Taurus (the CitySprinter's closest European relative) would have fared this good in a 160 km/h derailment...

shows Taurus 1116.173 after it lost the air on a down grade June 16 2010 and derailed on a 60 km/h curve at 125 km/h. (It was retired and replaced by another engine with the same number)


shows 1016.020 after it hit a tanker on a crossing May 24 last year at around 100 km/h