North Carolina NCDOT-Amtrak Piedmont Service

matthewsaggie wrote:Well, lets see, we just bought 2 from GO and are having them rebuilt- will probaly give them 10 more years of life. We are sending our F-59's off for rebuild as soon as the GO units are ready and in service, but we are still left with units looking at lives of 10 years. If we purhase new units now (remember the F-59's were bought new) they will be ready for half life rebuilds 10 years out, when we would again be looking for new units to maintain the cycle. I know of no Amtrak units that wil not need rebuilding to put them into service.

The F59PH and F59PHI locomotives are basically identical mechanically, although their appearances are different. The TRE already had 4 ex Go F59PH locomotives in service, and had bought 2 new F59PHI locomotives a few years ago. TRE just recently bought 3 more ex-Go F59PH locomotives too. TRE's reasons were (1) that the locomotives share the same parts, saving lots of cash in maintenance, and (2) total capital costs are far less. The recent TRE buy and refurbishing of the 3 more ex-Go F59PH locomotives costs less than 1 new MP36 locomotive....I'm not surprised to read NCDOT may be doing the same having two F59PHI locomotives on its roster.
Go is buying brand new MP40s and selling used F59PH locomotives at a price too good to pass on. The reason why Go has F59PH locomotives available for sale is because Go needs the MP40s to pull longer trains to meet service demands, the F59PH locomotives can't pull the longer trains.

As for ordering 4 new 4,000 HP locomotives in late 2009 for delivery by Sept. 30, 2011; they'll need to order MP40s to get that much horsepower. MP36s are only rated up to HP 3,600 HP.

David Benton wrote:why dont they just buy some surplus locos off amtrak ???

The terms "surplus" and "Amtrak" don't usually go together.

Current Equipment:
1755 City of Salisbury
1792 City of Raleigh
1797 City of Asheville
1810 City of Greensboro
1859 City of High Point

Retired Equipment:
1768 - City of Charlotte

Future Equipment:
1866 City of Burlington
1867 City of Durham (or Rocky Mount)
1871
1873

So what could be 1871 and 1873:
Cities on the Piedmont Crescent left off so far are Kannapolis, Cary, Selma, Lexington, Hillsborough, Gastonia. Winston-Salem is still left out. Other ides could be Hamlet, Rocky Mount or Wilson, Spencer, Wilmington, Lumberton, Fayetteville, Southern Pines.....

But these are the only valid incorporation dates I could find to match.... most of the above cities were incorporated well before or well after these dates.
1871 is Waynesville
1873 is Apex or Reidsville

So, question, what happened to the equipment bought about 10-15 years ago. I seem to recall a power car, business car (that they named the John Motley Morehead), 2 sleeper cars, the dome (which they already sold), and a few others that were converted to coaches. What happened to all of this, was it all surplused? Is NCDOT going to purchase any more equipment for passenger service? is there any ETA on when Western or Eastern service will start?

And the next question is, since NCDOT wants to run these more like commuters even though they are Amtrak intercity trains technically, why don't they add stops at UNCG, Elon and NC State at minimum to try shuttling the college kids around? Why not add stops in Graham, Hillsborough, Lexington and Thomasville too to try and increase demand by expanding the area served?

But, rallyrabbit, wouldn't this addition of stops make the Piedmont train into a commuter train for very-short-haul passengers, to the annoyance and inconvenience of the intercity passengers?

delvyrails wrote:But, rallyrabbit, wouldn't this addition of stops make the Piedmont train into a commuter train for very-short-haul passengers, to the annoyance and inconvenience of the intercity passengers?

Pretty Much. Maybe they can institute a separate commuter service (Charlotte/Raleigh to Greensboro) with high-density coaches and make those stops to connect with inter-city service. From the NCDOT printout, it's fairly obvious their ambitions extend far beyond adding just one train.

As you point out, NCDOT's plans submitted under ARRA involve fully double tracking the NCRR from Raleigh to Charlotte, including some triple track between Greensboro and Charlote. Nobody expects NC to get all they ask for; some apparently think NC is no longer in the running. But regardless of how much money NC does or doesn't get out of ARRA, there's a disparity between the level of track work that is planned, and the level of intercity and high speed trains that are planned.

The planned frequency is 4 daily HSR round trips from Charlotte to Washington, and an additional 4 daily round trips between Charlotte and Raleigh. That's 8 round trips per day between Charlotte and Raleigh.

Particularly between Raleigh and Greensboro, a double-track, PTC controlled railroad is way overkill for 8 passenger trains per direction each day, plus a smattering of freights. (Freight traffic is much heavier between Charlotte and Greensboro.) So they must have something else in mind for those tracks, right? Well, sure enough: the North Carolina Railroad has been studying the demand and the requirements for an additional 9 local round trips, from Greensboro all the way to Goldsboro, on top of the 8 trains already planned. With local transit agencies thinking about scrapping light rail plans in favor of a regional commuter rail system, you could wind up with more than 20 trains per day, some running express, others making many of the stops you mention and more, along the NCRR.

Time frame? The cynic in me says "When pigs fly."

1. Station stops in Hillsborough and Lexington are in the works. I expect them to be in place within 2 years.
2. Much of the equipment that an earlier poster referred to (4 cars) is ready for the third train. Other cars are being held for rehab when funding is available.
3. The ultimate frequency plan for Piedmont Service is 5 trains (not 4) a day Raleigh to Charlotte (including the Carolinian in that count).
4. The second and third track are needed to implement the SE High Speed Corridor plan, if funded. Thats why they are in the ARRA list.
5. ARRA- funding- I think that NC has about the best chance of funding of any state, as we actually have fully finished environmental approvals and large parts are truly ready to put out for bid. What we don't do is count our chickens before they hatch, nor blow our horn about it as some states do. Quiet and steady progress are the watchwords of NCDOT Rail Division. I know of no other state with approved environmental documents, ready to let bids.
6. The NCRR did their own commuter study last year, looking at the Greensboro-Goldsboro possibilities. While the DOT participated, it was an NCRR project.

See: http://www.ncrr.com/capacity-study.html

rallyrabbit wrote:And the next question is, since NCDOT wants to run these more like commuters even though they are Amtrak intercity trains technically, why don't they add stops at UNCG, Elon and NC State at minimum to try shuttling the college kids around? Why not add stops in Graham, Hillsborough, Lexington and Thomasville too to try and increase demand by expanding the area served?

While NCDOT has put a *LOT* of money into stations, they have been prioritizing existing stations. They've got several really expensive ones yet to do (Charlotte, Raleigh). I would not expect them to devote a lot of trouble to adding stations at this point.

Matthewsaggie is right about Lexington and Hillsboroguh, but NCDOT's target date is apparently 2015:

http://www.rtands.com/newsflash/lexingt ... -2015.html

delvyrails wrote:But, rallyrabbit, wouldn't this addition of stops make the Piedmont train into a commuter train for very-short-haul passengers, to the annoyance and inconvenience of the intercity passengers?

Yes, I am sure, but at some point they have to start treating the Piedmont as a Commuter rather than Inter-City. It would be way more viable as a commuter train for sure. For instance, think about the number of people who would or could take the Piedmont to A&T, Elon, Duke and NC State football games if they made stops a little more convenient. A UNCG stop not only puts UNCG on the train easily, but makes the Greensboro Coliseum within walking distance of the train. And Elon stop taps into 6000 students most of whom live in the Northeast. And so on.......

kmillard wrote:

delvyrails wrote:But, rallyrabbit, wouldn't this addition of stops make the Piedmont train into a commuter train for very-short-haul passengers, to the annoyance and inconvenience of the intercity passengers?

Pretty Much. Maybe they can institute a separate commuter service (Charlotte/Raleigh to Greensboro) with high-density coaches and make those stops to connect with inter-city service. From the NCDOT printout, it's fairly obvious their ambitions extend far beyond adding just one train.

ncdot_arra_rail_project_list_july_8_2009.pdf

Something I have yet to really figure out is the SE High Speed Rail plan. Is the plan to run along the NCRR which bypasses Winston-Salem? Or is it going to bypass High Point and go through Winston-Salem? Is it going to bypass Raleigh and go North from Durham along the old line that used to run south from Petersburg? Are they planning to replace all that track since the bridges are still there? The whole SE high speed rail thing seems like a complete pipe dream as it seems like everyone is fighting over how to get it in their area without thinking about how to get it in place the best possible way.....

matthewsaggie wrote:1. Station stops in Hillsborough and Lexington are in the works. I expect them to be in place within 2 years.
2. Much of the equipment that an earlier poster referred to (4 cars) is ready for the third train. Other cars are being held for rehab when funding is available.
3. The ultimate frequency plan for Piedmont Service is 5 trains (not 4) a day Raleigh to Charlotte (including the Carolinian in that count).
4. The second and third track are needed to implement the SE High Speed Corridor plan, if funded. Thats why they are in the ARRA list.
5. ARRA- funding- I think that NC has about the best chance of funding of any state, as we actually have fully finished environmental approvals and large parts are truly ready to put out for bid. What we don't do is count our chickens before they hatch, nor blow our horn about it as some states do. Quiet and steady progress are the watchwords of NCDOT Rail Division. I know of no other state with approved environmental documents, ready to let bids.
6. The NCRR did their own commuter study last year, looking at the Greensboro-Goldsboro possibilities. While the DOT participated, it was an NCRR project.

See: http://www.ncrr.com/capacity-study.html

Ok, great for Hillsborough and Lexington. But what about the other larger cities on the line (ie Thomasville and Graham)? Are they even on the horizon?

IS further equipment being purchased?

Why isn't NCDOT working with PART, CATS and TTA to get real commuters going on rather than this short distance inter-city thing we have now? It just seems to me that the Piedmont resembles a MARC or VRE train more than it does an Amtrak train.

matthewsaggie wrote:5. ARRA- funding- I think that NC has about the best chance of funding of any state, as we actually have fully finished environmental approvals and large parts are truly ready to put out for bid. What we don't do is count our chickens before they hatch, nor blow our horn about it as some states do. Quiet and steady progress are the watchwords of NCDOT Rail Division. I know of no other state with approved environmental documents, ready to let bids.

NC only has approved environmental documents for small projects like the Haw River siding, though many projects on the NCRR could probably be done with an EIR/FONSI rather than a full-blown EIS. The draft EIS for Petersburg to Raleigh is supposed to be released sometime within the next month or so, but then it has to go through public hearings before becoming final and receiving its ROD. That process will take about a year, assuming it goes smoothly.

One big strike against the plans in NC, though, is that high speed rail is NOT a political issue here. Sure, politicians say they support it, but nobody is throwing their weight behind it or expending any appreciable political capital. This contrasts with Florida, California, Illinois, and New York - where powerful, well-known politicians from US senators to governors are in the newspapers or on TV on an almost weekly basis stumping for High Speed Rail. If ARRA money is doled out based on merit and shovel-readiness in an entirely apolitical process, then NC should probably get $500 million at least; however, I fear that the money from ARRA will be awarded on a political basis - something not compatible with NC's "Quiet and steady progress" philosophy. LaHood has already basically committed to giving billions to Florida for a pointless 90 mile line between Tampa and Orlando, presumably because he has political connections in Florida.

There is some discussion going on between TTA, NCDOT, and NCRR: read this article. PART has made no appreciable progress towards planning or implementing its rail plan since 2002. They now have the 1/2 cent sales tax option on the table so maybe they'll get serious. CATS is focused on light rail to Mooresville at the moment, though a line to Salisbury would certainly seem to make sense.

All in all, given the population spread out in all the cities and towns along the NCRR, and especially given the growth in the corridor, it really does make sense for the NCRR to be operated operate as a combination of local, intercity, and express (HSR) service.

The biggest challenge for the midday Piedmont trains may be the state budget. Funding for all sorts of programs has been slashed this year. Depending on how the state coffers are looking, we may or may not see the midday Piedmont opening delayed a bit.

As to commuting to Elon, A&T, etc., forget it for now. For commuter service, you would need PART to be serious about rail;they're not. That also means that since PART is not serious about rail, Winston-Salem is effectively cut off from the High Speed Rail. This is a shame since Winston-Salem had the biggest turnout by far of citizens in support of HSR in the state.

orulz is right about the lack of politicking by NC pols on HSR. Hopefully our shovel-readiness will allow us to tap some funds and get started on more improvements to raise speeds in the Raleigh-Charlotte corridor even more.