NoBoston South to Boston North?

Supposedly this project is getting some second wind, I don't know though, I just hope it doesn't hold up other improvements we desperately need in the area, like an expanded South Station. I also saw some ideas for possible DMU service via a connection in the BU area, but that's probably decades away. A part of me believes if that if the North-South Raillike was ever going to get built, it shoudda been done with the Big Dig.

Wasn't there also a plan for a "Central Station" too?

IF and I mean a BIG IF these two stations were to be connected by a direct underground rail link it would probably be necessary to electrify it to avoid noise and fumes in a tunnel of this nature especially if an intermediate station were to be even considered. The cost would be extremely high and I have to wonder where the money would come from. In doing something like this it would probably mean electric MU equipment for at least some commuter trains and indeed any that were to use a link of this nature, again a huge cost although a worthwhile project with our without the tunnel. For the life of me I can't figure out why the MBTA hasn't gone for some decent MU equipment for at least Providence service and maybe some of the other lines out of South Station. As I have said many times on here IF through service is needed between New York and Portland it would be better to run it over existing routes via Worcester using the Providence and Worcester either through Providence or through Norwich. I think a couple of daily round trips via Worcester would be instant winners in patronage all along the route.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:... As I have said many times on here IF through service is needed between New York and Portland it would be better to run it over existing routes via Worcester using the Providence and Worcester either through Providence or through Norwich. I think a couple of daily round trips via Worcester would be instant winners in patronage all along the route.
Noel Weaver...

Pan Am could certainly get on-board with a publicly funded track upgrade of their decrepit but critical Worcester, Stony Brook, and Lowell branches! I like the idea of connecting Worcester to the NEC at Providence which could facilitate both commuter service and access to the highest speed portion of the Acela network. I don't know if Boston could survive another Big Dig project.

It would be easy to survive THIS 'dig' because the construction work wouldn't be nearly as obtrusive as the I-93/I-90 work was.

You're working on portals and tunnels straight through the city without all the maze of on & off ramps, HOV lanes, etc. To be honest, I'd leave a Central Station "for later" as more and more of the system gets electrified. Excavate the cavern at first, naturally, but wait for the full build-out.

Given the current state of finances in Massachusetts, there is zero chance of this happening anytime in the foreseeable future. The Big Dig fiasco has left a generation of debt to pay off and the right now the state is having trouble just keeping up with necessary infrastructure repairs. The next major rail transit improvement in the Boston area will be the Green Line light rail extension into Somerville and Medford, which has been pushed ahead due to a combination of funding issues and the usual NIMBY obstructionism. Beyond that, I don't expect to see any significant new rail construction in the next decade at least. There's just no way to pay for it. On a smaller scale, the outgoing governor has pushed a restoration of commuter service to Fall River and New Bedford on existing trackage, largely (in my opinion) to curry favor from the local pols down there, but that too keeps getting pushed forward in terms of real construction because there's no money for it.

AgentSkelly wrote:Wasn't there also a plan for a "Central Station" too?

Yes, that was in the original plan for the proposed rail tunnel.

johnpbarlow wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:... As I have said many times on here IF through service is needed between New York and Portland it would be better to run it over existing routes via Worcester using the Providence and Worcester either through Providence or through Norwich. I think a couple of daily round trips via Worcester would be instant winners in patronage all along the route.
Noel Weaver...

Pan Am could certainly get on-board with a publicly funded track upgrade of their decrepit but critical Worcester, Stony Brook, and Lowell branches! I like the idea of connecting Worcester to the NEC at Providence which could facilitate both commuter service and access to the highest speed portion of the Acela network. I don't know if Boston could survive another Big Dig project.

Assuming they get public funding for PTC as well, perhaps.

I see mixed double-stack freight, commuter rail and subway cars loading on to carriers to run through this expensive tunnel. Special traction assist helps with steep approach ramps (either cables, rack & gear or magnets). Assembled trains would go through on two minute intervals.

BandA wrote:I see mixed double-stack freight, commuter rail and subway cars loading on to carriers to run through this expensive tunnel. Special traction assist helps with steep approach ramps (either cables, rack & gear or magnets). Assembled trains would go through on two minute intervals.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Freight? From where? Heck, TO where? Before long, frieght won't be seen anywhere inside the 128 area.

Subway cars? Huh? We already HAVE the Orange Line.

Loading commuter rail cars onto CARRIERS???

Umm.. Yeah..

In the news yesterday,

"It’s not a 6 or 7 or 8 billion-dollar project. That’s just nonsense," Dukakis said when contacted after the state Senate included an appropriation related to the project in a multi-year transportation bond bill.

http://hamilton.wickedlocal.com/article ... /140418022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The former governor thinks the tunnel can be dug for as little as $2 billion.

Richard Arena, president of the advocacy group Association for Public Transportation and a board member of the U.S. High Speed Rail Association, estimated project costs at $4 billion and said the state’s share of that may be about 20 percent.

I recall the long-ago words of onetime Senator Everett Dirksen: "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money."

Mike Dukakis is a good man and a genuine advocate for public transportation, but he's not the one making funding decisions anymore. Throwing money into a "study" per the linked article is a traditional Massachusetts political tactic that allows the pols to claim that they're doing something without actually funding it, and as for preserving the right-of-way for a rail tunnel, unless someone's going to dig a new subway or start a mushroom farm underneath buried I-93 and I-90 that's not exactly a demanding requirement. After the Big Dig turned into a $14 billion money pit that we're going to be paying off for years, and with infrastructure crumbling all around the state, lip service like that is all this project is going to get for at least the next decade or two.

It is possible to go from North-South using the grand trunk line, but it involves a change of direction once you get onto the CSX line. There is no room to rebuild the leg of the wye facing east that would be needed to avoid the change.

All in all, with the fact that the orange line stops at back bay and north station in a straight line, is the return on investment really there? Downeasters aren't going to go south onto the high speed track, and there is no wire north to run regionals. MA has a lot of rail infrastructure that needs repairs and upgrades, I feel the money may be better spent elsewhere.

gprimr1 wrote:It is possible to go from North-South using the grand trunk line, but it involves a change of direction once you get onto the CSX line. There is no room to rebuild the leg of the wye facing east that would be needed to avoid the change.

Would a loop track be possible? Especially since it is no longer a train yard, and hasn't been redeveloped yet, it's now or never.

Rockingham Racer wrote:

BandA wrote:I see mixed double-stack freight, commuter rail and subway cars loading on to carriers to run through this expensive tunnel. Special traction assist helps with steep approach ramps (either cables, rack & gear or magnets). Assembled trains would go through on two minute intervals.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Your welcome...this is the only practical solution I could think of that would justify building a north-south link, i.e. creating something that has never been done using technology that already exists. A few years ago I did a real back of the napkin calculation assuming $2B, assuming a carrying cost of 5% (what is the actual rates that MA pays on their bonds?...transparency much?). That's $100M a year, or $273,972 per day for 30 years, just to create the ROW, not counting maintenance, rolling stock, or operating costs! How many riders every day? In order to justify the expenditure, you need this rail link to be highway competitive - >= 45MPH, and have train density approaching what they have in NYC. In order to achieve this you need to pack mixed traffic. To do that you need to be crash resistant, which I interpret in my made-up scenario as anything riding on top of special crash resistant carriers. Rack-and-gear, linear induction, cables, carriers, Automatic Train Operation are all existing technology. 'course the last time Boston transportation was on the cutting edge was 1897.