Next Generation Corridor Car?

New Jersey Transit unveiled a prototype car in Newark yesterday that they expect to place in service next year. Here is coverage including photos that can be enlarged from Today's New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/15/nyregion/15train.html

I can only hope that Amtrak or successor agency does not decide this BOMB would be the perfect next generation standard (Regional) coach.

Looks like a "knock off' of commuter cars I have observed in Germany..

I don't know, I kind of like it! But then, at 6 feet tall, maybe I won't like it so much after hitting my head on the ceiling a few times! Certainly, it doesn't offer the luggage capacity desired for a longer distance car, and for a train with food service, walking through a train consisting of these bi-levels to get to a cafe car would present handicapped accessibility issues.

We have discussed feasability of using bi-level equipment here in the past, Mr. HSR. You indeed raise a valid point regarding ADA accessibility to Food Service.

I'm pretty sure the ADA is met by simply having the food brought to the person covered by ADA. Since Corridor travel is now by reservation, it might be necessary to assign a second SA when an ADA reservation is made. These duties could also be assigned to an Assistant Conductor, but obviously there would be Labor matters to address. I do not believe there is a requirement that facilities be arranged so that person can "wheel"at will through the train. Commuter agencies have long had to address access to Lavatories so that should have been addressed in the design Bombardier submitted to NJT.

I would presume that Amtrak or successor's equipment would have somewhat more favorable seat pitch (at least for me @ 5'9") and the seats would recline.

BONGGG!!

Ab Gleis Sieben, Bitte Einsteigen, Tueuren Schliessen, Vorsicht bei der Abfarht!

That does look, a lot, like a DR bi-level coach I saw back in 1986 when I took a tour of the East.

Oh, wait ... it's made by BOMBARDIER! NJT will be in legal hassles for the next decade

(ducking and running)

John Perkowski

As a rider of NJT, and from what I read in the local newspapers, in addition to the NY Times and other news media I have followed on this topic, the bi-lvels "appear" to be an improvement over what we currently have. I am totally unimpressed with the utilitarian comet cars in service now and the constant issues facing the Comet V cars. Course there is a lot of wasted space, from some other diagrams I have seen, with these bi-levels. For example, the cab cars had to be totally re-arranged which gave more room to the person driving the train in return for removing seats/capacity.

Many riders thought they were doubling capacity with the bi-levels. This is not the case. Capacity is minimally increased with the bi-levels versus single levels.

Course most riders are just pleased that the "third" seat is gone and we have two by two seating and an "exra inch of leg room". Wahoo!

I really wish NJT would have designed bi-levels similiar to Amtrak California cars or the San Diego bi-level Coaster cars. Commuters are business people and many business people like to continue or finish their day on the commute home. For $1.9 million per car, I was hoping for more commuter friendly amenities such as this. But amenities seem to be out of NJT's vocabulary since the very beginning. I often compare the current passenger cars to "people cattle cars - just stuff'em in." I love the conference tables on the Coaster and CA cars. They still *could* have included these amenities and reduced height restrictions to get them through the Hudson River tunnels.

Should be interesting to experience. But we won't see them in service until 2006. I just hope the seats are comfortable. It's going to take longer to disembark with these bi-level trains due to stair/door arrangement. I believe the Amtrak CA cars have three doors don't they? NJT bi-levels will only have two doors for entrance and dis-embarking. So these bi-levels will be best used for express trains.

I think NJT made a big mistake for not trying out their "initial order" of cars to ensure they function properly. They rushed into the add-on order awful quick. I am surpised by this considering the Comet V disasters (latest NJT passenger car in operation plagued with problems). Course if this was a way to get cars under funding that may have disappeared, than maybe it was wise "to go for it." If that's true - too bad transit agencies have to operate with this type of funding.

Course if you really want to travel in style with reclining seats, trays, and conference tables - join the Jerse Shore Commuter Club (that operates on the North Jersey Coast Line) or ride Amtrak (that operates on teh NEC). Take advantage of the Clockers while they still last!!!!

I can only hope that Amtrak or successor agency does not decide this BOMB would be the perfect next generation standard (Regional) coach

Somehow I doubt that this will become the Superliner III or whatever number...

The new bi-levels will have a special area to meet ADA requirements. And as for food service - this isn't offered on NJT trains. And I doubt Amtrak would ever use this NJT bi-level design for their "next generation" corridor cars. These are to simply utilitarian style commuter cars - could they have been designed better to meet commuter needs? Won't know till this commuter steps aboard - if at all!

jp1822 wrote:And I doubt Amtrak would ever use this NJT bi-level design for their "next generation" corridor cars. These are to simply utilitarian style commuter cars

They're no more utilitarian than an Amfleet coach, in terms of the basic design. It wouldn't be hard to add Amfleet style seating to them. They basically did just that with a commuter coach to create the Horizon coaches!

Another issue for an Amtrak version, however, would be top speed. NJ Transit generally specifies a 100 mph top speed for its equipment. (And they do run at 100 mph, as I confirmed once again with my GPS device on a trip to Princeton this past weekend.) I don't know if there'd be any technical hurdles in making a 125 mph version of this new car, although I doubt it.

hsr_fan wrote:
They're no more utilitarian than an Amfleet coach, in terms of the basic design. It wouldn't be hard to add Amfleet style seating to them. They basically did just that with a commuter coach to create the Horizon coaches!

I can't see how these NJT bi-level cars would even be comparable to Amfleet cars. On the NJT bi-level cars- the seating is different, electrtical is different, there's no carpeting, there's limited luggage storage space, designed for slightly different passengers etc.

Amtrak is renovating its Horizon fleet to reverse a lot of the typical "commuter" trends they relate to.

Could Amtrak use the "shell" of these new NJT bi-level cars to create a Viewliner or Amfleet type "next generation car" - perhaps.

But I would hope Amtrak choses more of the Amfleet luxuries than what is afforded with these new NJT bi-lvel cars. The "next generation" Amtrak corridor passenger car would need to have better accommodations to meet the needs of its customers - and I'd hope it would remain single level. This is easier for Amtrak corridor service.

But amenities seem to be out of NJT's vocabulary since the very beginning. I often compare the current passenger cars to "people cattle cars - just stuff'em in."

But that's the problem, they are TOO comfortable. The problem NJT was trying to solve with bi-levels is "Titanic" trains which are severely SRO. Their solution was to buy highly expensive bi-levels that only seat a few more people than the mono-levels. The new bi's needed 3-2 seating on BOTH levels. What do you expect for your nickle, to live forever?

I think the Viewliner would make a good model for the next generation of Amtrak rolling stock. In addition to sorely needed sleepers, diners, and perhaps lounges, Amtrak could also use the Viewliner shell for coaches. The upper windows would likely be deleted, and imagine the amount of overhead luggage space you could have in them! You would have exit doors at both ends of the car, as opposed to one end of the Viewliner sleepers (and automatic doors would be desirable).

jp1822 wrote: Should be interesting to experience. But we won't see them in service until 2006. I just hope the seats are comfortable. It's going to take longer to disembark with these bi-level trains due to stair/door arrangement. I believe the Amtrak CA cars have three doors don't they? NJT bi-levels will only have two doors for entrance and dis-embarking. So these bi-levels will be best used for express trains.

You're incorrect there... there are four doors on these cars.

They're odd-looking things to be sure, but of course the profile had to be adapted to fit under the catenary in the Hudson River tunnels. I'm not a New Jersey commuter, but given the universal unpopularity of the middle seat I suspect most people will prefer to climb stairs over sitting in the dreadeds 3-2s.

I doubt that Amtrak would ever consider bilevels of any sort for the NEC because they take longer to load and unload, and station dwell times are a consideration, although that doesn't seem to be a problem in California. (I've ridden the splendid California Cars, and they seem to be great for the service they're in -- too bad they don't fit in the tunnels.) Should Amtrak come up with the money some day for NEC Amfleet replacement, I'd expect to see an intercity version of some commuter coach already in production, with modest additional amenities like carpeting and reclining seats. Hopefully the mechanical disasters associated with the Acela equipment have taught Amtrak a lesson about sticking with proven, off-the-shelf technology.

I did not note if either the article or the accompanaying photos addressed the "forward riding" matter i.e. fixed direction seats.

While I have not had any appreciable experience with NJT (last ride: Dec 98 Newark to Penn - I stood), it always seems to me that on both SEPTA and MYMTA cars (all with middle seats), forward riding fills first.

I have no idea, but no doubt high placed and paid consultants have "studied' the issue for each commuter agency to determine the extent of passenger preference. I certainly know mine that I'm quite prepared to share with any commuter agency for $10000 a word (guess what it's free here at the Forum - forward ride).

Anycase, to return this topic to Amtrak matters, Amtrak once experimented with fixed seating in a rebuild of the venerable ex-PRR "Congo' cars that ended up assigned to the Clockers. Since, to my knowledge, it was not repeated with other rebuild programs, I guess today it is just left to the folk who wish to pay the most, i.e. Bedrooms, to have no alternative other to ride in the direction Amtrak chooses (the little chair in the BR is not what I call comfortable).

The problem with the bilevels is that they don't provide enough additional seating, and will increase station dwell times. Since they are heavier than single-level cars, they will impact acceleration, especially on NJT lines that have closely-spaced stations.
I don't think Amtrak should use bilevel cars on the corridor. They will be too cramped and will cause increased station dwell times. What is acceptable for an hour commute isnt acceptable for a longer, more expensive trip on an Amtrak corridor train.