New Jersey Seashore Lines: was CNJ being cleard Woodmansie>N

Ken W2KB wrote:

glennk419 wrote:

Hawaiitiki wrote:

RailsEast wrote:

wolfboy8171981 wrote:What if the commodity moved is not sand?

1/23/2012 - "Mr. Fusaro met with the Manchester Township Coordinating Council. They had a good amount of representatives present from the senior villages. The area of greatest concern was the reassessment. The second area of concern was the railroad crossing. It is rumored that there will be a passenger train service that would increase the number of trains and noise."

Again, just a rumor.......

Thats rich. If anybody wants to exemplify how unlikely passenger service with any sort of frequency is; show them the 5-year opperating record on the CMSL. They cant figure out the logistics to run a tourist train in a tourist town, much less between the massive metropolis of Lakehurst and the Tokyo-Yokohama of Central Jersey, Whiting.

I thought this was a discussion regarding the reactivation of the CNJ. If you really feel the worthless need to tear into Tony and the CMSL, take it to another thread.

Valid observation. The economics of CMSL makes it very difficult to operate a regular schedule of passenger trains, made worse by the setbacks such as the track materials theft. The CNJ line is very much different in that regard, and I look forward to riding a passenger train on it in the foreseeable future. Constructive suggestions as to what the nature of feasible CNJ line passenger service might be would be much more appropriate, e.g., brainstorming on what the general public would patronize. The general public ridership is what makes or breaks a tourist operation.

Who would be the operator of this so called new "Tourist operation" up in the Whiting area??? Any ideas??

Ken W2KB wrote:

Hawaiitiki wrote:

RailsEast wrote:

wolfboy8171981 wrote:What if the commodity moved is not sand?

1/23/2012 - "Mr. Fusaro met with the Manchester Township Coordinating Council. They had a good amount of representatives present from the senior villages. The area of greatest concern was the reassessment. The second area of concern was the railroad crossing. It is rumored that there will be a passenger train service that would increase the number of trains and noise."

Again, just a rumor.......

Thats rich. If anybody wants to exemplify how unlikely passenger service with any sort of frequency is; show them the 5-year opperating record on the CMSL. They cant figure out the logistics to run a tourist train in a tourist town, much less between the massive metropolis of Lakehurst and the Tokyo-Yokohama of Central Jersey, Whiting.

The comparison is perhaps not proper. CMSL trackage does not have freight service so all costs of inspection, maintenance, etc. must be borne entirely by the passenger operation. Most of those costs for the line under refurbishment will be there and thus paid by the freight service whether passenger runs or not. So the economics are that to the extent that the passenger operation can cover all its variable costs, it can be run, and to the extent it covers any more than its variable costs, it makes economic sense to do so.

You are correct. I was perhaps a little quick to the gun, perhaps exacerbated with my unrelated frustration with the state of CMSL. I also understand the management of the CMSL can only do so much, but I feel like if anywhere in NJ is ripe for a tourist operation, its Cape May.

Anywho, with my already low expectations of any new private passenger operations in NJ, I honestly dont see this coming to fruition other than some sort of yearly excursion. I agree that if they can conjure up a service that can cover the variable costs of the passenger operation, I dont see why they wouldn't do it. However, there is a high likelihood is that this would be a money loser and would only drain the profits of the sand operation.

Honestly, I hope I'm wrong. I'm huge supporter of the proliferation of rail transport in all of its forms. I just dont see a tourist service moving people on a relatively unscenic trip between the Pine Barrens(Whiting) and a rundown Shore town(Lakehurst) that is still 10 miles from the Beach. On the other hand, get this service to Red Bank. Then, now we're talking.

A buddy of mine texted me over the weekend that lights and gates were installed at Wranglebrook Road (Pleasant Valley Rd)....anybody else see this? -Chris

How did we go from talking about rebuilding the line to a tourist operation?

And if we are talking about a tourist operation, I think that the success (or lack of) of the CMSL is absolutely fair game for discussion. Two "tourist" lines running by the same fella but you can't discuss or compare them? Come on.....

Lets see something actually roll over those rails and they actually get reconnected to live rail first. Lets not get ahead of ourselves. I can't imagine that whoever is putting up this money for the various work being done has a tourist operation through this area of the state on the top of the priority list. Maybe there is an agreement that Mr. Macrie can play choochoo trains with people on them on days when not hauling freight, I have no idea.

But im PRETTY certain that when/if the line actually goes back in service, its primary objective will be hauling some kind of freight or materials. Not people.

Jtgshu wrote:How did we go from talking about rebuilding the line to a tourist operation?

And if we are talking about a tourist operation, I think that the success (or lack of) of the CMSL is absolutely fair game for discussion. Two "tourist" lines running by the same fella but you can't discuss or compare them? Come on.....

Lets see something actually roll over those rails and they actually get reconnected to live rail first. Lets not get ahead of ourselves. I can't imagine that whoever is putting up this money for the various work being done has a tourist operation through this area of the state on the top of the priority list. Maybe there is an agreement that Mr. Macrie can play choochoo trains with people on them on days when not hauling freight, I have no idea.

But im PRETTY certain that when/if the line actually goes back in service, its primary objective will be hauling some kind of freight or materials. Not people.

The primary objective is indeed freight. But the freight does facilitate passenger operation without the necessity of the passenger operation absorbing all cost of the railroad like the present status of CMSL. By way of another NJ example, look to the synergistic operation on the BR&W. The railroad is first and foremost a for-profit short line freight railroad. The BRRHT is able to operate passenger trains over the railroad and supplement the income of that freight operation. So it is a win-win. Any extra revenue the railroad company gets for passenger operation over the trackage is to the railroad's advantage. So long as any incremental costs, likely minimal, that are incurred by the freight railroad for allowing passenger operations are covered plus some extra money it makes economic sense to allow it. I would expect that Clayton as a business would recognize that and cooperate with Tony to make it happen. Time will tell.

The BR&W wasn't always primarily a freight operation, however. For the first several years, there was an arrangement with Penn Central whereby BR&W leased the line on weekends, being issued a train order to operate as a tourist line. The former PRR line was eventually purchased from PC; when the Bel-Del got taken out of service (not sure of the exact legal ramifications-), the CNJ line to Three Bridges was purchased and the LV connection established for interchange. But the passenger operation came first by several years.

To respond to Hawaiitiki's earlier comment about CMSL not being able to run a tourist operation in a tourist town, I say this: I'm sure that if Tony had been able to get his equipment to Cape May he would have been running this summer. The numbers I have heard to repair the vandalized track aren't exactly pocket change, unfortunately.

I love when I make a post (relevant to the original topic) ^^^ and everyone skips right over and ignores it and keeps talking about their railfantasies.......how bout we wait till a train actually rolls over this trackage again before we start discussing tourist ops, who will operate it, what engine they will use, what color it will be, what kind of horn will be on it, what kind of snacks they`ll have in the concession car, how hot the girl working in the concession car will be.........sigh.....-Chris

I have to agree, it's nice to play with the idea of other services but let's get the tracks together and the sand trains rolling first before we start discussing tourist lines.

EDM5970 wrote:The BR&W wasn't always primarily a freight operation, however. For the first several years, there was an arrangement with Penn Central whereby BR&W leased the line on weekends, being issued a train order to operate as a tourist line. The former PRR line was eventually purchased from PC; when the Bel-Del got taken out of service (not sure of the exact legal ramifications-), the CNJ line to Three Bridges was purchased and the LV connection established for interchange. But the passenger operation came first by several years.

To respond to Hawaiitiki's earlier comment about CMSL not being able to run a tourist operation in a tourist town, I say this: I'm sure that if Tony had been able to get his equipment to Cape May he would have been running this summer. The numbers I have heard to repair the vandalized track aren't exactly pocket change, unfortunately.

I toned down my response in a later post. I'm just trying to say, "Hey, I understand that the CMSL has a had a problem with vandalism and a variety of other outside forces(storms, NIMBYS, bridge issues), but it would be unfair to let management completely off the hook because these are problems that EVERY railroad deals with, and many(including plenty of tourist operations that operate only passenger service) still manage to profit handsomely and operate consistently."

And like many regulars to the "New Jersey Railfan" threads, if we all had a nickel for every time in the past five years somebody here with "inside information" swore there would be consistent service to Cape May "Next Year", we'd all have enough nickels to build a High-Speed ROW between Cape May and Winslow Junction.

I've digressed, as usual. As many of us on this forum have seen the photos of signals, crossing rehab, and other MOW work, where actually does the CSAO live track end? Lakehurst near the wye to old line to Toms River? Lakewood? Somewhere in between?

The fact that we're seeing signal and crossing work at least several miles south of active railway is a very good sign and an exciting thing for railroading in New Jersey because as we all know, in a crowded state like New Jersey, once a ROW goes silent, its next to impossible to get trains back on it.

CTL10D wrote:A buddy of mine texted me over the weekend that lights and gates were installed at Wranglebrook Road (Pleasant Valley Rd)....anybody else see this? -Chris

Anyone check this out? If it is so, another piece of the puzzle is complete

David wrote:

CTL10D wrote:A buddy of mine texted me over the weekend that lights and gates were installed at Wranglebrook Road (Pleasant Valley Rd)....anybody else see this? -Chris

Anyone check this out? If it is so, another piece of the puzzle is complete

Yes there are lights and gates at Wranglebrook Rd. Big Deal

An interesting (& civil) discussion, which is why we're all here. Hope springs eternal, and we wish all parties involved the very best in their efforts of service resumption, whenever that may be. Brother Hawaiitiki, you are correct in that ANY improvements outside of active trackage is a good sign. To answer your query, the line was severed at MP65.9 in Lakehurst in June of '09, and then again at MP61 in South Lakewood in December of 2010. A single section of rail was removed in each case, presumably to simplify reactivation if need be. And to agree with an earlier post....yes, indeed, when the Rt.539 crossing is rebuilt is when the adrenalin will surely kick in.....

Any one of a few scenarios could happen; personally, I would love to see a 'BR&W' type operation, where the entire Southern Secondary would turn into a true shortline (ala NH&I, BR&W), with freight & tourist operations peacefully coexisting and paying the bills. No, this is not a new rumor, just a personal fantasy.....

And, Wolf, by using caps, I would almost assume that it might be a 'Big Deal', no??

RailsEast wrote: And, Wolf, by using caps, I would almost assume that it might be a 'Big Deal', no??

Well no, but it is interesting.

I got nothing. I just hope this isnt another waste of taxpayers dollars like the Rahway Valley/SIRT of 2003...... Remember that fiasco.

wolfboy8171981 wrote: Well no, but it is interesting.
I got nothing. I just hope this isnt another waste of taxpayers dollars like the Rahway Valley/SIRT of 2003...... Remember that fiasco.

In my view, it will get interesting when it is clear a private entity is spending big $$. Like when we see the sand operation restore the loading facility and related tracks, etc. JS

Little remiss in documenting the improvements in the ROW that would add to those already posted by photo. My preferred two wheeled transit has a electric starter problem. I should be able to address that by the weekend and give everyone here a look at the other improvements that have been referred to here, like Savoy Rd. (which reminds me on the other side of 72 someone has taken over the old siding served lumber yard property there...wonder what thats all about?)first hand. I can walk to the ROW but prefer two wheels like the Mossad does for operational transit. On a X country trip following old Rt.66 in 2010. I followed the ROW of BNSF and i think the original path of the Super Chief through Arizona. I recall seeing the gleaming silver paint on the signal stanchions and it reminded me on a much smaller scale mind you of our two new signals at Lacey Rd.

Yes we are in agreement that the next nexus of activity has to be Rt 539. I just look at diesel prices and think about what Clayton is paying to move his sand around and know that something awfully remunerative is on the end of this. The signal control shed is better looking than the one located on the River Line at Farnsworth Ave. in Bordentown, so his deal with Seashore Lines and I feel an even larger railroad operations partner must be worth a tidy sum.

Nothing happens without someone putting A in touch with B. The last thing this is about for now anyway is a dinner train. Right now the economics of bulk transport of raw materials is in play and no less than Warren Buffet has made that play. But that is what I like finding a need and filling it is what the transportation business not the railroad business is all about.

The fact that it is sand again is yet another indication that someone after all this time has decided the timing is right. In my youth I was "ironbound" and saw more rail action than most. The thought of an active rail line in backyard again may torque off my neighbors here....but not me!