New Erie Lackawanna organization

Folks,

There is a new Internet-based Erie Lackawanna group that promises to have a lot of potential, at least based on the initial content that appears on its website - check it out:

<B>http://www.elhts.org</B>

- Paul

Nice plug.............; )

Looking around the computer desk here, I see several file cabinet drawers full of fine publications that the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society (ELHS), the Anthracite Roads Historical Society, and others have published about the EL and its predecessors over a thirty year period, plus a shelf full of excellent books on this railroad written by many very capable authors. On the IE favorites I have saved links a variety of websites and discussion groups that deal with the Erie Lackawanna.

Starting nearly thirty years after the demise of the EL, with so much information already out there, this group may have a difficult time convincing followers of the railroad that it is worth the membership fee for access to a website. It will be interesting to see how they do.

Talk about timely! I just found out about this group this past weekend from a flyer I picked up at the Ithaca Train Show. I found out about this forum from their links page.

I believe you are unwittingly making their case, you have 30 years of the ELHS magazine and a shelf full of books, but what about today's fan, modeler or historian? They aren't going to buy those books or back issues, most of which are long out of print. From what I read on their web site, they are trying to reach out not only to people who have an intimate, first hand knowledge of the railroads, but to the newer generation which only has second hand knowledge or none at all.

Think about it, what happens to the history of the fallen flag railroads once the people who do have first hand experience are gone? You don't reach today's generation of railfan and modeler with printed publications the way it used to be, the Internet and web is fast becoming a primary source of information to this generation. They don't want to by a shelf full of printed matter. Being a web based organization and from what I read, their archive will be on line, makes a whole lot of sense.

I'm a member of the ELHS and have been for a number of years, not for 30, but long enough. I don't how they are going to survive just like I don't see how many of the other historical societies are going to survive when we are all gone. The members of these groups are aging and passing on and membership declining. Look at the NMRA or the NRHS to name just two. It won't be fallen flags, it will be forgotten flags. I applaud the effort the ELH&TS is making and not only will I wish them well, I am going to join!

JD

I really don't see the need to pay dues money to a new online railroad historical society. Everything you could want to know about these predecessor railroads is already available online, at no charge.

Maybe 20 years ago, before the home PC days, it was great to join a RR society and receive a monthly printed publication. You knew where your money went -- into the publication.

Now these societies don't print anything. You have to pay them for the privilege of researching their site? Sorry, but there are dozens of fans who post tons of information about the fallen flags and don't ask for one penny.

You get what you pay for. There is hardly a plethora of factual, accurate information available on most web sites personal or otherwise, I have encountered. If what you find satisfies you, great, some people though are interested in more than the superficial information one tends to find.

Finding useful information about the DL&W and Erie is altogether a challenge. The EL is better but I mean more than just pictures, real, well researched historical information. If there is an excess of accurate, factual information on the web relating to these roads, I haven't found it yet. I've encountered a great deal of speculative information and misinformed conjecture though along with a few bits of solid historical knowledge.

So if what you find satisfies your needs, I am indeed happy for you. Don't begrudge those who seek more in depth information and are willing to kick in 10 bucks to have access to it. There ain't no free and server space beyond the "free" ad supported accounts costs real money. Someone is paying for it and $10 per year is a reasonable cost of entry.

JD

I visited this organization's website tonight and what I see there is very troubling.

This evening they had posted a list of "members on the Erie Lackawanna Mailing List" (so WHO's list is it?) and their interests, which includes their e-mail addresses, and their membership numbers in the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society (the ELHS, which is a totally different organization, with no link to the ELH&TS website). Only one person on the list had an ELH&TS membership number by their name at the time when I looked at it. I recognize some of these folks and I doubt that they are members of this ELH&TS group and I wonder whether they were asked about having their information and e-mail addresses displayed this way. I am not going to post a link to this page since I suspect the page was posted without the permission of the people who appear on the list, and I would guess it will be taken down as soon as people start to complain about it.

That list has existed for years and is no secret to the people on it. They are there because they wish to share information. The site has always been accessible through Railfan.net. They are now aligning themselves with this new organization, that's all.
http://el-list.elhts.org/members/
Notice the statement "If you would like to be included in this list, please E-mail me..."

They are "aligning themselves with this new organization"?

Now that is a fascinating choice of words!

So presumably people on the list may not be members of this "new organization"?

Are you saying the people shown on the list were all contacted and asked if they wanted to be "aligned"?

Or did they get "drafted"?

Having been a member of the EL Mailing List for years I can assure you many people assumed it was the ELHS' Mailing list. It never was and never has been, yet a lot of people always thought so. At times it seemed like it was an ELHS list because of all the posts about business matters for that group, which was why I unsubscribed from the list a couple of months ago. I didn't join the list to hear about all of the ELHS' dirty laundry. The list is supposed to be open to anyone to discuss the DL&W, Erie and EL, not just ELHS members discussing Society business. The ELHS should have started their own email list or Yahoo group for that and should have done it years ago, but as far as I know they still haven't. I didn't mind the occasional post to the email list, but it was getting to be the primary topic of discussion.

From what I understand the owner of the list is a member of the new group and asked them to sponsor the list. From talking with a friend of mine who is still a list member and not an ELHS member, it is about as significant a change as seeing the Yahoo footer at the bottom of a post to a Yahoo group or from one of those free email accounts. Maybe with the new distinction the ELHS discussions will stay off the list, guess I'll re-subscribe and give it another try. There are a couple of people on that list who are very knowledgeable about the roads and I do miss reading their posts.

As for people including their membership number at the ends of their posts, well I have never seen the point myself. If I did that I'd be listing 10 or 12 different organizations and it would look rather silly. To each their own and it doesn't hurt anyone so what's the harm I suppose. Just don't mistake people including those as indicating who actually owns the list.

Personally I'll stay a member of the ELHS even though I just sent in my membership to the new group. I don't see a conflict myself. If they can put useful, accurate material on line it will be worth it. It would be great to do a site Google search and find what I'm looking for. I've got all those back issues and books, but try finding anything when you need it! How many hours have I spent doing that? Time I could have better spent modeling. Now back to the workbench to finish those F&C DL&W covered hoppers!

JD

So information that people originally provided for posting on a specific privately run website was handed off to an incorporated group without the people who originally provided it being consulted? No concerns about how the people who provided the information felt about that?

You still don't get it I guess, maybe because you never saw it before. I don't think any information changed hands, became property of anyone it wasn't already or was absconded with near as I can tell. The only difference from what was there and what is there is a header and footer. Otherwise it's the same page that's been there for 8 years that I've seen it. Probably a fair bit out of date as so many things on the web are these days.

If you're really concerned about it, why don't you just email the list owner and ask.

JD

498 wrote:So information that people originally provided for posting on a specific privately run website was handed off to an incorporated group without the people who originally provided it being consulted? No concerns about how the people who provided the information felt about that?

The guy running the web page also ran the Conrail Technical Society web page. He even uses some of the same words in the introduction, "we'll do this, we promise that". We all know what the Conrail Technical Society is about. No way the webmaster didn't know, too.

CR6618 wrote: We all know what the Conrail Technical Society is about.

I dont..
what is it about?

Scot

It is fascinating how uninformed and down right false information can spread for no understandable reason. The fact is I know the guy who is doing the "web page" and he never had anything to do with the Conrail Technical Society. I've known him for years and he doesn't even have an interest in Conrail. Blue and white just isn't GMY.

This all illustrates nicely what I meant about how much misinformation there is on the Internet. People just don't bother to check their facts before they post something. Then the gullible and unsuspecting take it as fact. Too bad, but I guess that is why spammers keep doing it, there are a lot of suckers out there.

JD