New Double Deckers

I thought I heard that pic was taken overseas, but the cranes look to be about 100 years old and very American - not much of the Japanese industrial system is that old. Educated guess says Milwaukee...

buddah wrote:ya byte proubly wont find a easy loop hole just have to wait for a rules rewrite or cab signaling system.

I found this picture online.... first it is labeled as one of the NICTD cars not a Metra one. I haven't seen any other shots of the new cars in this building stage. I'm wondering if anyone has an Idea of where it was taken? Supersteel, NICTD shops, or overseas at Nippo's plant.

What you install are advance signals, if around curves or blind areas, mainline RR's use them, they indicate speed to operate, often double headed, which is what a cab signal would help indicate anyways. I think a speed boost would help the line if it could be done somehow, in specific areas of the line, cab signals are not impossible but its another investment.

East Coast passenger trains like the Metroliners regularly run over 90.

Places that could allow higher speeds would be the EC bypass since its elevated.
For grade level runs grade crossings would need retiming when gates come down and detection when to start them, so doing higher speeds means a lot more than just thrusting the throttle up. You may want to look for more restricted ROW access with higher speeds, doing more grade crossing eliminations (and vehicle/train accidents!)

Raising the speed bar to me would be a bonus for the line, but it does require reworkings. Certain current areas of the line might tolerate it.

dinwitty wrote:What you install are advance signals, if around curves or blind areas, mainline RR's use them, they indicate speed to operate, often double headed, which is what a cab signal would help indicate anyways. I think a speed boost would help the line if it could be done somehow, in specific areas of the line, cab signals are not impossible but its another investment.

A few things - first, there are no such thing as a signal designed specifically to do what you propose - I'm not sure where you got that information, but it's wrong. Wayside signals cannot replace cab signals, because cab signals give you several things that they cannot - continuous updates of track conditions ahead, and continuous automatic train control. That's why the Feds allow higher speeds if you retrofit with cab signals. They're safer than waysides because they provide a means to slow a train if it's going too fast for the given signal indication.

Second, the South Shore already has cab signals installed on the line. They came as part of the resignaling effort that's taken place over the last 5 years or so. What's missing are cab signal receivers and aspect display units on the cars. If NICTD decided to go that route, the fleet could be retrofitted and the cab signal infrastructure already installed could be switched on. It's a toss-up as to whether or not that will happen, now that the Federal government has mandated Positive Train Control by 12/2015. That might make cab signals redundant and a waste of money at this point.

dinwitty wrote:East Coast passenger trains like the Metroliners regularly run over 90.

First of all, just for information, there are no longer any Metroliners - all Amtrak NEC high speed service is now covered by the Acela Express. And yes, trains on Amtrak's NEC can go more than 90 MPH. In some places, regional trains can attain 125 MPH, and the Acela Express 135 to 150 MPH. That's because there is a cab signal system and a civil speed enforcement overlay system installed there.

dinwitty wrote:Places that could allow higher speeds would be the EC bypass since its elevated.

For grade level runs grade crossings would need retiming when gates come down and detection when to start them, so doing higher speeds means a lot more than just thrusting the throttle up. You may want to look for more restricted ROW access with higher speeds, doing more grade crossing eliminations (and vehicle/train accidents!)

Raising the speed bar to me would be a bonus for the line, but it does require reworkings. Certain current areas of the line might tolerate it.

Many areas west of Michigan City would support higher speeds, but again - without a full cab signal installation, you cannot go more than 79 MPH, by Federal regulation.

well, thats good news to hear, I didnt know the SS had the system in, just not integrated into the cars yet.

As for signal information, advance signals, this is from all the hobby media I have, back issues of MR, RMC, Trains, Railroad, just going from experience.
I have installed signals on my layouts and made circuits to make 2 head or 3 head signals work.

I have one book hear describing signal indications and their meaning, RR, RY, GY, RRY, RGR, etc etc etc etc.

And signals will be a part of the layout I am building including the SS, but its the old ABS (1950's SS era). My knowledge is the signals are to indicate the speed the train is to operate but also usually give track indication and routing.

I'll not make a mistake about signals since I deal with it so closely.

I recall an article in MR I believe that talks directly about advance signals and they tend to be placed in the middle of specific blocks and give a speed indication.
They usually require 2 heads or 3 depending on the circumstance.
It adds interest as far as the model hobby goes.

dinwitty wrote:well, thats good news to hear, I didnt know the SS had the system in, just not integrated into the cars yet.

As for signal information, advance signals, this is from all the hobby media I have, back issues of MR, RMC, Trains, Railroad, just going from experience.
I have installed signals on my layouts and made circuits to make 2 head or 3 head signals work.

I have one book hear describing signal indications and their meaning, RR, RY, GY, RRY, RGR, etc etc etc etc.

And signals will be a part of the layout I am building including the SS, but its the old ABS (1950's SS era). My knowledge is the signals are to indicate the speed the train is to operate but also usually give track indication and routing.

I'll not make a mistake about signals since I deal with it so closely.

I recall an article in MR I believe that talks directly about advance signals and they tend to be placed in the middle of specific blocks and give a speed indication.
They usually require 2 heads or 3 depending on the circumstance.
It adds interest as far as the model hobby goes.

The signals you might use in modeling and those in actual use are very different. There really is no such thing as an "advance signal". There is a distant signal, which is positioned in the approach to an interlocking. There certainly are no signals "placed in the middle of specific blocks" on any mainline North American railroad that I'm familiar with. Signals are placed at the start of a block to indicate track occupancy or some other track condition (such as broken rail) and at the entrance to interlockings either to indicate the speed at which the train can operate through the interlocking, or to indicate the route (normal or diverging) that the train will take through the interlocking.

You may be thinking of British signal practice.

My brain may be thinking of a signal indication, which is Advance Approach, which requires at least a 2 head signal, which is used by a distant signal, yet this is a signal that is in "advance" of maybe an interlocking signal that helps to give an indication to the engineer. Just a little confused here on semantics.

dinwitty wrote:My brain may be thinking of a signal indication, which is Advance Approach, which requires at least a 2 head signal, which is used by a distant signal, yet this is a signal that is in "advance" of maybe an interlocking signal that helps to give an indication to the engineer. Just a little confused here on semantics.

No, no. Advance Approach is a signal aspect, not an indication. It is used in 3-block, 4-aspect wayside automatic block signal systems. It is one of four aspects that can be displayed by a given signal in that system. It conveys an indication to the engineer that the next signal will be at Approach, and the second signal will be at Stop or Stop and Proceed. The engineer needs to control his train such that it approaches the next signal at Medium Speed.

It does not enhance train control or safety in any way which would allow trains to break the Federally-imposed 79 MPH speed limit on systems that do not have cab signals.

In short, you could throw 10 wayside signals a mile on a system and it will still never be allowed to increase its maximum authorized speed beyond 79 MPH. Cab signals, which *will* allow that, are a completely different animal.

get this

http://www.hcn.org/issues/41.2/all-aboa ... :int=1&-C=

But after World War II, national leaders turned their backs on trains. In 1947, a year after companies started receiving deliveries of passenger locomotives that could go 118 mph, Congress, goaded by the highway, automobile and airline lobbies, voted to restrict speed limits to 79 mph on most passenger runs. "The United States became the only nation in the world to deliberately limit the speed of its passenger trains," writes John Stilgoe in his 2007 book, Train Time.

indication/aspect, sounds rather similar terms to me

are the cars actually in service yet?

Not to my knowledge. I'm taking a ride on Thursday and again on Friday so I'll post pics if I see anything.

dinwitty wrote:indication/aspect, sounds rather similar terms to me

Similar, but not the same. Signal aspects are the name and appearance of a given signal - Advance Approach, for example (normally shown as a flashing yellow or flashing yellow over red). Signal indications are the instructions related to that signal - the Advance Approach signal, for example, has an indication under NORAC rules of : "Proceed prepared to stop at the second signal. Trains exceeding Limited Speed must begin reduction to Limited Speed as soon as engine passes the Advance Approach signal." This can vary by railroad or by rulebook, but generally they direct engineers to do similar things.

superbad wrote:are the cars actually in service yet?

Acceptance testing is still proceeding, six days a week, middays currently. The cars are projected to be in revenue service, probably on Trains 116 and 109, by the end of this month.

I saw the test train last week on Friday. I've got plenty of pics, as well as METX 611 (the F40C) operating and some of the SW Chief. I spent a weekend travelling, as you can see.

Album Link: http://rides.webshots.com/album/570561533SiBvgu


All taken from the window of a moving train at Shops.

looking at those windows kinda what, big small big small? now I know, emergency exit windows.


still needs more orange and maroon...

dinwitty wrote:still needs more orange and maroon...

Yes they do. At least they kept the South Shore logo.