New Atlanta Station

I have to agree with Matt that, at least until corridor service is started to Atlanta, there's no compelling reason to move to MMPT for one single inter-city train, especially given the time required to to a back up maneuver and backtrack.

Jeff Smith wrote: It will be interesting to see what they come up with as an alternative for Amtrak, because without them, it's not really MMT is it? And CRT is way off in the horizon, too.

I think you're overstating the importance of Amtrak. Until a reasonable corridor service is started to Atlanta, the Amtrak's Crescent hardly registers at all in the realm of inter-city transportation. The objective of having a centralized intermodal transit facility is primarily to act as a hub for local/metro area transportation and secondarily as a starting point for intercity travel.

Jeff Smith wrote:I do recall you saying that, Matt. It will be interesting to see what they come up with as an alternative for Amtrak, because without them, it's not really MMT is it? And CRT is way off in the horizon, too.

Whoops, sorry. Now I can't even find where I posted, and I KNOW I posted on here Well, I hope you don't mind, but I'll copy over the same argument:

MattW wrote: While I like the idea of a centralized transit hub, I'm afraid this won't work at all for current Amtrak service without some changes. The way the Crescent's route is setup, to access a central hub station would require at least one backing move. Either the Crescent can pull in forward, then back out to Howell Junction (roughly due west of the Brookwood spilt, Atlanta's railroads follow the interstates pretty closely including having a downtown connector) before pulling forward to head for Austell. Or, the Crescent can swing around Howell Junction and back down into the hub. Or the Crescent can swing around the triangle trackage (called a wye) that forms part of the gulch, and within which the MMPT platforms would be built. Any of these would add a lot of time to the Crescent's schedule.

This problem could be fixed by one of several solutions. One solution attractive to Atlanta, would be to run the Crescent through to the airport, then on CSX to LaGrange, Montgomery, and Mobile. This would put our airport on the national rail network, and provide a more direct link from Atlanta to the Gulf coast. Based on the sketches I've seen of the platforms, there would still be a backing move, but it'd only be about 3 train lengths or so (~3000ft). However, Birmingham, Jackson, and Hattiesburg would lose Amtrak service (and several other cities).

The better solution, is to keep the Crescent on the current route, but take back the beltline for passenger rail (Amtrak and the beltline's planned light rail could not legally exist without massive grade separation of both). This would also provide a more direct route to Charlotte and the Northeast and would keep trains off the railroads' "downtown connector" which is very busy with freight traffic as-is, so this would also help keep the freight railroads happier.

I agree one LD Amtrak train a day is not huge in the scheme of things. I myself want a "Piedmont" ATL-NYP train in the opposite direction. Interestingly, coming back into ATL last night I saw the NB Crescent 20 in the station about 8:55pm.

Matt, assuming ATL is a crew base (I believe it is), couldn't they just station one or two extra gennies (P42DC) at the MMT and just change ends? You'd have to set the consist up right to buffer the engine, but still. If you really wanted to get fancy, Amtrak could buy or lease from NJT some of those nice shiny ALP45DP's they're getting and run straight through from NYP! (Pure foam, I know).

Jeff, ATL isn't a crew base. They're based in Meridian, MS and Charlotte, NC and use Atlanta as their away from home terminal.

No news, but if I may speculate

Given the current situation:
- Amtrak has stated in the PIP that it would prefer to cut off cars in Atlanta because demand is lower south of Atlanta
- Amtrak's existing Atlanta station is overflowing and needs to be replaced as soon as possible
- Amtrak's existing Atlanta station is poorly located and would get better patronage if downtown
- The existing Atlanta station is not really ADA-compliant, and Amtrak is under pressure to make all its stations compliant
- Amtrak is sufficiently unconcerned about the demand for service south of Atlanta that it has been known to cancel it without replacement service for 3 days a week (or was it four?) for months at a time while NS did trackwork
- the schedule on the Crescent is pretty long and padded already

I would speculate Amtrak would probably decide that it was worth the extra time of the wying and backup moves to get into the new Atlanta station. The extra time could be placed entirely on the Atlanta-New Orleans segment if I read the design proposals for the MMPT correctly (multiple tracks, throats on both ends).

Having now researched the design of the MMPT, the plan is for north-south aligned platform tracks in between the NS line and the CSX line; tracks will run under the Phillips Arena, or possibly wrap around the east side of it (hard to tell) with platforms to the south of it (mostly). The platforms will be much closer to Dome-GWCC-Phillips Arena-CNN MARTA station than to Five Points, although it looks like it's intended to provide an underground passage to Five Points. They're planning to bury the entire are under an extension of the road grid and buildings when they're done. So whatever they do with the tracks, they're going to be very much stuck with it.

I have my doubts that this will ever get out of study hell. But if it does, I think Amtrak will move there; the long backup maneuver from the wye would be annoying, but Amtrak makes a similar back-up move in Chicago on the City of New Orleans. Certainly nothing will get built for a while, even with expedited environmental review, this is going to take at *least* a few years.

EDIT: Oh, ahem. I've been lazy in the past, I should get in the habit of dropping citations. Current designs for the MMPT are at http://www.dot.ga.gov/informationcenter ... fault.aspx. The information about the track layout is from the 2010 technical report http://www.dot.ga.gov/informationcenter ... mplete.pdf .

I used this track map of the Atlanta area for reference: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... Ipn2fHdFhA -- note that it has an old location of the MMPT on it. The MMPT will be further west.

Is there room for a teardrop-shaped loop between the CSX and NS tracks, splitting off the western (NS?) route just below Phillips Arena, making a very tight curve through the current parking lots, and joining the northern leg of the wye (CSX?) between Spring Street and Centennial Olympic Park Drive? It looks like the curve's radius would be 400 or 500 feet, or a 12 to 16 degree curve - is that legal or advisable for passenger trains?

mtuandrew wrote:Is there room for a teardrop-shaped loop between the CSX and NS tracks, splitting off the western (NS?) route just below Phillips Arena, making a very tight curve through the current parking lots, and joining the northern leg of the wye (CSX?) between Spring Street and Centennial Olympic Park Drive? It looks like the curve's radius would be 400 or 500 feet, or a 12 to 16 degree curve - is that legal or advisable for passenger trains?

Wouldn't be useful for turning a train in any case; the problem is that Amtrak services in both directions are coming from the north of Phillips Arena. The platform configuration wouldn't allow for direct access from the eastbound CSX tracks (to Decatur, Augusta) towards any platform except a stub-end platform which only goes east (for commuter rail). With the planned platform configuration, for a loop to be useful it would have to exit from the south side (blocks south of Phillips Arena) to be south of the platforms, and somehow come around to the north side. There is definitely no room for a loop on that end.

EDIT: I realized I wasn't clear; the planned north-south platforms start south of Phillips Arena and head south from there, ending only at the southern throat; definitely no room for a loop there.

The proposted configuration would keep Amtrak on either NS tracks or station tracks the entire time if it made the 2.5 mile backup move, so it's not so bad from a dispatching handoff point of view. Alternatively, Amtrak could switch on and off of CSX for a shorter backup move, but with more of a dispatching handoff. (I don't know who dispatches the Howell Wye, anyway; if that's CSX, there's already a dispatching hassle, if it's NS there isn't.)

I suppose there might be room to build a turning facility for one or two locomotives (without having to change onto CSX-dispatched track), if Amtrak were willing to run the locomotives around the train; if they're adding and cutting cars, that might possibly make this a reasonable thing to do.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, neroden - I see why that would be tricky Whatever the case, you're right that Amtrak should operationally be able to use a new downtown station for all of its trains, and prevent the worst-case scenario of duplicate stations like North Philadelphia/PHL and the two Richmonds.

Looks like Amtrak will abandon both the old Southern Railway Peachtree Station, and plans to go downtown to the new MMPT. They are now looking at the State Road and Tollway Authority site at 17th and Peachtree:

Atlanta Business Chronicle

Amtrak, Greyhound could be part of 17th and Northside multimodal site

...The Authority owns the site at 17th Street and Northside Drive by IKEA and the Norfolk Southern Corp. rail line and across from the Atlanta Water Works. Amtrak has chosen the property to contain a facility that would replace its historic Peachtree Street station, according to marketing materials for the site involving the authority, the real estate company Lionstone Group LLC, and a local commercial real estate brokerage.

...

“We plan commercial and retail uses, and we are working on an idea for the site that could have a transportation component,” Carter President Scott Taylor said. “Amtrak is part of this plan. We’re waiting to see if we’re selected.”

...

The project is nowhere close to as large as downtown’s Gulch, nor is it intended as an alternative to the 120-acre site near the Georgia Dome, CNN Center and Philips Arena. It would be anchored by a multimodal passenger terminal. The Gulch is estimated to add almost 6 million square feet of office, retail and residential space.

There has been a website up for months with documents and information on the offering to developers for the 17th Street and Northside property. The zipped documents on there provided the requirements Amtrak has for the station and info on the proposed overall layout of the station and tracks. Details include a 1200' long platform, layover track, 4210 sq ft waiting room suitable for 200, first class lounge, parking, space for buses.

If Greyhound is interested in building a bus terminal at the site, I would think that improves the prospects of the project moving forward. Greyhound and if some other discount bus operators use the location, that would provide regional intercity connections for Amtrak that are not dependent on Amtrak arranging for through buses. The site is not adjacent or anywhere close to a MARTA station, so that is a negative. But Amtrak is not in a position to be picky or wait for the Atlanta region to expand the local transit system.

With Cobb wanting to use it, I could see GRTA and Gwinnett, too. Also, weren't there provisions for another branch off of the North-South line as well, up in that direction? Perhaps a stub terminal for MARTA could be built.

Jeff Smith wrote:With Cobb wanting to use it,...

Not sure what "it" is. If "it" includes MARTA, I would be very surprised to hear of Cobb County wanting "it".

I live up in Yankee-land, but my brother lives in Cobb County, and he describes the people there as dead set against having MARTA in their county, and hostile to public transportation in general. As he describes it, they don't want anything that would make it easier for poor or black (groups that are usually conflated) people to get into Cobb County.

BTW, this brings up one stereotype which limits political support of public (surface) transportation in most of the USA: the idea that public transportation is solely for those too poor to own a car.

Jeff Smith wrote: Also, weren't there provisions for another branch off of the North-South line as well, up in that direction?

The original MARTA plans included a NW spur line north of the Arts Center station, heading up the I75 corridor.

The tunnel was built (if you look really closely from a southbound train, you can see it branching off) but was never used, and the portals were never dug out.

Today, the area is so maturely built out, it would be almost impossible to implement in any manner than up the middle of the highway ... and the disruption that would have on traffic would make it politically impossible.

This map shows the conception :

Jeff Smith wrote:Looks like Amtrak will abandon both the old Southern Railway Peachtree Station, and plans to go downtown to the new MMPT. They are now looking at the State Road and Tollway Authority site at 17th and Peachtree:

Who said they were intending to make an ultimate move to the MMPT?

I believe it was part of the plan, using the belt-line to get there, to get to the MMPT.

The North West line extension to Northside is what I remember. It's a short enough stub; how hard could that be? I don't there's that many headways they couldn't fit in a shuttle. Maybe even just to Brookwood or Atlantic.

Cobb would USE the station, not participate in MARTA, i.e. for connections.