NEC Operations

Hey everybody. I have been hearing rumors recently that once the east side access tunnels are completed in a couple of years. MTA is going to try and merge its current operations together(Metro North and LIRR) And then try and purchase part of if not most of the NEC from Amtrak.So basically it would be sate ran by MTA from Albany to NYP,NYP to Montauk(SSYD included)Metro North is already planning to come into NYP and runs up to NHV. I know how rumors are so I was just wondering what anybody else heard or things of this.

amtbuff wrote:Hey everybody. I have been hearing rumors recently that once the east side access tunnels are completed in a couple of years. MTA is going to try and merge its current operations together(Metro North and LIRR) And then try and purchase part of if not most of the NEC from Amtrak.So basically it would be sate ran by MTA from Albany to NYP,NYP to Montauk(SSYD included)Metro North is already planning to come into NYP and runs up to NHV. I know how rumors are so I was just wondering what anybody else heard or things of this.

Borat voice --> "Whaaaaaaaat?"

I'm not sure just what your definition of "most of the NEC" really means. However, since NY State and the MTA already own most of the NEC within NY State, there really isn't much more to buy and I'm not sure why they would want to buy it and now be stuck with the costs of maintaining it. The only sections of the NEC that the MTA doesn't already own are from Penn Station through the East River tunnels, past Sunnyside, over the Hell Gate Bridge, and up to Shell interlocking in New Rochelle. From Shell east to the CT border, the MTA already owns the tracks.

Additionally the LIRR made a deal with Amtrak years ago that guarantes them X number of slots everyday. Amtrak can not take away those slots, the LIRR owns them. So for the amount of trains that MN might eventually send down the Hell Gate line, I can't really imagine why NY and the MTA would want the expense of maintaining them. And they certainly wouldn't want Sunnyside yard, and I don't see Amtrak selling that. The LIRR just built a brand new facility next to Sunnyside yard, so they have no need of the greater Sunnyside facilities owned by Amtrak.

As for the west side, Metro North already owns from Spuyten Duyvil north to Pougkeepsie. The only section that they could buy is NYP north to Spuyten. CSX owns north of Poughkeepsie. And there were merger plans a few years ago for MN/LIRR, but that got squashed and I haven't heard anything new.

I think you're confusing several things here.

1) There is a long-term plan to combine the management of LIRR and MNR, mostly to reduce overhead. I don't think operations would be affected, unless and until MNR starts operating over Amtrak's Hell Gate Line from New Rochelle to Penn Station. This is said to be in the planning stage.

2) Sunnyside is a major Amtrak maintenance facility. I don't see much point in New York taking it over.

3) Amtrak and LIRR already alternate management of Penn Station on a six-month cycle.

4) There has been some talk of running MNR Hudson Line trains into Penn Station down the West Side line, but as far as I know nothing has been done as far as any operations planning work. In theory, some MNR P32s could have their third rail shoes modified to use LIRR third rail (presumably this could be done to run MNR trains into Penn Station from the New Haven Line as well), but I don't know that this has progressed beyond the talking stage yet.

5) Current plans for the new Hudson tunnels DO NOT include any connection to existing Penn Station trackage. The facility would be strictly for NJT, and so would have nothing to do with either LIRR or MNR.

NellieBly wrote: 3) Amtrak and LIRR already alternate management of Penn Station on a six-month cycle.

Hmm, I had heard every other month. And I can say my experience certainly seemed to be about 1/2 the time coming in from ALB, my Amtrak train waited for NJTransit train to clear the throat on the west side of Penn and 1/2 the time it seemed we got in before the NJTransit train. Always wondered if that was related.

NellieBly wrote: 5) Current plans for the new Hudson tunnels DO NOT include any connection to existing Penn Station trackage. The facility would be strictly for NJT, and so would have nothing to do with either LIRR or MNR.

And this personally I still think is a bad way to go. It seems like it'll save a bit of money, but really not gain much flexibility. But that's my personal opinion.

I've heard dutch mention a number of reasons that would prohibit mncr from operating into nyp, this includes modification of the 3rd rail shoes, the m1's cannot operate on amtrak ocs between shell and nyp. Also nyp is VERY congested, that is why lirr is starting it's project to connect to gct. I think that the biggest reason why we won't see mncr moving into nyp is because of capacity, it just doesn't make sense.

hi55us wrote:I've heard dutch mention a number of reasons that would prohibit mncr from operating into nyp, this includes modification of the 3rd rail shoes, the m1's cannot operate on amtrak ocs between shell and nyp. Also nyp is VERY congested, that is why lirr is starting it's project to connect to gct. I think that the biggest reason why we won't see mncr moving into nyp is because of capacity, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm waiting for Dutch to see this and respond he would no better than all of us. But what you say makes alot of sense.

amtbuff wrote:Hey everybody. I have been hearing rumors recently... I know how rumors are so I was just wondering what anybody else heard or things of this.

You yourself said it was a rumor. If it was confirmed, then it would be a "fact" and not a rumor. A "confirmed rumoe" is still a rumor.

amtbuff wrote:Hey everybody. I have been hearing rumors recently that once the east side access tunnels are completed in a couple of years. MTA is going to try and merge its current operations together(Metro North and LIRR) And then try and purchase part of if not most of the NEC from Amtrak.So basically it would be sate ran by MTA from Albany to NYP,NYP to Montauk(SSYD included)Metro North is already planning to come into NYP and runs up to NHV. I know how rumors are so I was just wondering what anybody else heard or things of this.

Everything you said here is wrong.

- East Side Access has zero connectivity between the LIRR tracks and MN tracks, so no link-up there.

- Metro-North already owns part of the Northeast Corridor between New Haven and New Rochelle.

- Currently no plans and no money and no crews to run Metro-North to Albany.

- Any planned merger of MTA properties (MN and LIRR as one company) was dismissed years ago.

I'd say you need to take your questions to the Metro-North Forum or the LIRR Forum for more detailed answers.

-otto-