Railroad Forums
Most unsucceful LIRR locomotive
- Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Moderator: Liquidcamphor
by M1 9147
2 Metra Units, both 516, and 521 ran on the Bi Level train when the C1's were first put in service, and were total wastes as they were both oil spitters, and oil leakers, and total hunks of junk when you looked at them. The DE/DM's are my by far junk! As my Diesel Dan said, the LIRR would of been better having the GP 60 retrofitted with HEP's, or the GE P32ACDM's. What I think might happen as some said, the LIRR may purchase, but that is a rumor of coarse the P42ACDM GEVO. Now you see why we have fare hikes, because MTA wastes money on junk in the first place instead of getting it right the first time.
by Nasadowsk
<i>Now you see why we have fare hikes, because MTA wastes money on junk in the first place instead of getting it right the first time.</i>
"getting it right the first time" would have been electrifying the system and dumping diesel operation altogether, save for one or two shuttles out east, at least until the LIRR get's out of 1950 and realizes there's actually a population east of Ronkonkoma and Patchague....
There's no reason the LIRR had to buy the fleet they did, and when you look at the long term outlook (say, 15 years from now), it made even less sense.
"getting it right the first time" would have been electrifying the system and dumping diesel operation altogether, save for one or two shuttles out east, at least until the LIRR get's out of 1950 and realizes there's actually a population east of Ronkonkoma and Patchague....
There's no reason the LIRR had to buy the fleet they did, and when you look at the long term outlook (say, 15 years from now), it made even less sense.
by Richard Glueck
How about if the LIRR goes to an all USA fuel, like say coal, and maybe something recylable and abundant, like water? You use the coal to boil water and harness the expansive properties in an enclosed cylinder, then attach that to a weighted wheel. Now, imagine towing steel cars which can be easily rearranged, to a terminal, turning the locomotive around, and towing the same cars back?
This is not only environmentally more sensitive, but requires no foreign oil. Furthermore, this type of motive power is pleasing to the eys and ears. It might be too far into the future, but I thought I'd suggest it.
This is not only environmentally more sensitive, but requires no foreign oil. Furthermore, this type of motive power is pleasing to the eys and ears. It might be too far into the future, but I thought I'd suggest it.
"We no take-a gasoline. We no take-a airplane. We take-a steamship! And that friends, is how we fly to America! - Chico Marx
by NIMBYkiller
But would electrification have been practical in some places? The way I see it, the electrification of the PJ line is still 15-20 yrs away, montauk line to Patchogue in 20-30 yrs.
Other than that, I highly doubt that until maybe 2050, electrification elsewhere will be worth the construction and maintanance costs.
Other than that, I highly doubt that until maybe 2050, electrification elsewhere will be worth the construction and maintanance costs.
by Nasadowsk
<i>How about if the LIRR goes to an all USA fuel, like say coal, and maybe something recylable and abundant, like water?</i>
Because coal is the dirtiest way to do anything, and steam locomotives suck hard, which is why everyone scrambled to dump them. They've got no power, lousy traction, kill track, have a high COG, are maintenance disasters, are exceptionally dirty, a pain to run, dangerous as hell, have poor visability, are freezing in the winter, boiling in the summer, and require lots of expensive machinsts to keep running. And they're slow as frozen dog poop.
<i>This is not only environmentally more sensitive, but requires no foreign oil.</i>
Sulphur dioxide, mercury in various forms, high co and co2 emissions, paticulates, radioactive stuff. It's amazing coal is even legal as a form of stationary power generation in the US, though it's all but banned from lower NY now.
<i>But would electrification have been practical in some places? The way I see it, the electrification of the PJ line is still 15-20 yrs away, montauk line to Patchogue in 20-30 yrs. </i>
Cut those numbers in 1/2, and you'll have an upper limit of when it'll be needed. The growth on the east end is getting insane, and there's no place left to build highways. The LIRR will simply have to do something major to handle the traffic simply because there will be no other way to do it. realistically, an electric PJ line is needed NOW. What the LIRR should be talking about is reactivating out to Wading River, though that would have to be electric in order to be politically viable, as would any Central branch rebuild (as good an idea as it may be, I see neither happening in the next decade or so).
In the context of where LI's going to be in a few decades, buying a new diesel fleet made no sense at all. It simply didn't. Buying a fleet that can't go to GCT or FBA was even stupider.
And we've seen the results of the DM-30s in reality. They're junk, pure and simple. The LIRR should have sued EMD back to the stone age after these things turned out to be steaming turds - they didn't work as advertised. That's not the LIRR's fault, that's EMD's. NY taxpayers shouldn't have to pay one cent for EMD's inability to build a locomotive.
<i>Other than that, I highly doubt that until maybe 2050, electrification elsewhere will be worth the construction and maintanance costs.</i>
By 2050, you'll be seeing serious talk of HSR along the center of the LIE. By HSR, I mean 125+mph expresses from Queens out to mid Suffolk. There's nowhere to expand highways anymore. More people are arriving. Something has to give, pure and simple.
Long Island's population could easily double in the next decade or two. By 2050, there will be no big pine barrens, no farmland, no anything. Suffolk will be one big suburbia, as built up as Nassau. There will simply be no other way to deal with traffic other than a major investment in rail, and frankly, electifying now will be a lot cheaper than doing it 20 years from now, and easier with comparitively little traffic on the east end.
The biggest problem is this '5 years from now' attitude that the MTA/LIRR/NY State have w.r.t. planning improvements. The east end is growing. It's not going to stop growing. It's not going to slow down, even. Traffic's going to grow. Something's going to have to be done. People aren't going to accept changing trains, idling diesels, infrequent service, the noise or pollution from diesels. You're not going to be able to sell any reactivations of dormant lines unless they're electric - pure and simple.
Because coal is the dirtiest way to do anything, and steam locomotives suck hard, which is why everyone scrambled to dump them. They've got no power, lousy traction, kill track, have a high COG, are maintenance disasters, are exceptionally dirty, a pain to run, dangerous as hell, have poor visability, are freezing in the winter, boiling in the summer, and require lots of expensive machinsts to keep running. And they're slow as frozen dog poop.
<i>This is not only environmentally more sensitive, but requires no foreign oil.</i>
Sulphur dioxide, mercury in various forms, high co and co2 emissions, paticulates, radioactive stuff. It's amazing coal is even legal as a form of stationary power generation in the US, though it's all but banned from lower NY now.
<i>But would electrification have been practical in some places? The way I see it, the electrification of the PJ line is still 15-20 yrs away, montauk line to Patchogue in 20-30 yrs. </i>
Cut those numbers in 1/2, and you'll have an upper limit of when it'll be needed. The growth on the east end is getting insane, and there's no place left to build highways. The LIRR will simply have to do something major to handle the traffic simply because there will be no other way to do it. realistically, an electric PJ line is needed NOW. What the LIRR should be talking about is reactivating out to Wading River, though that would have to be electric in order to be politically viable, as would any Central branch rebuild (as good an idea as it may be, I see neither happening in the next decade or so).
In the context of where LI's going to be in a few decades, buying a new diesel fleet made no sense at all. It simply didn't. Buying a fleet that can't go to GCT or FBA was even stupider.
And we've seen the results of the DM-30s in reality. They're junk, pure and simple. The LIRR should have sued EMD back to the stone age after these things turned out to be steaming turds - they didn't work as advertised. That's not the LIRR's fault, that's EMD's. NY taxpayers shouldn't have to pay one cent for EMD's inability to build a locomotive.
<i>Other than that, I highly doubt that until maybe 2050, electrification elsewhere will be worth the construction and maintanance costs.</i>
By 2050, you'll be seeing serious talk of HSR along the center of the LIE. By HSR, I mean 125+mph expresses from Queens out to mid Suffolk. There's nowhere to expand highways anymore. More people are arriving. Something has to give, pure and simple.
Long Island's population could easily double in the next decade or two. By 2050, there will be no big pine barrens, no farmland, no anything. Suffolk will be one big suburbia, as built up as Nassau. There will simply be no other way to deal with traffic other than a major investment in rail, and frankly, electifying now will be a lot cheaper than doing it 20 years from now, and easier with comparitively little traffic on the east end.
The biggest problem is this '5 years from now' attitude that the MTA/LIRR/NY State have w.r.t. planning improvements. The east end is growing. It's not going to stop growing. It's not going to slow down, even. Traffic's going to grow. Something's going to have to be done. People aren't going to accept changing trains, idling diesels, infrequent service, the noise or pollution from diesels. You're not going to be able to sell any reactivations of dormant lines unless they're electric - pure and simple.
by NIMBYkiller
"Cut those numbers in 1/2, and you'll have an upper limit of when it'll be needed. The growth on the east end is getting insane, and there's no place left to build highways. The LIRR will simply have to do something major to handle the traffic simply because there will be no other way to do it."
So then how's this...electrify to PJ and Patchogue when it comes time to replace the existing diesel fleet, which is probably 15 yrs. I know it's pushing it for the PJ line, but it would be a pretty big waste to do it sooner.
"What the LIRR should be talking about is reactivating out to Wading River"
AMEN! Whether or not to build it as electric is another question. No doubt the population out there is growing like a wild fire, but I doubt a yard out there would sit well, and it'd be a waste of money. Maybe the trains could yard at PJ? Or maybe have Wading River as a 3 or 4 track station, and have 1 train an hour going east of PJ?
Rebuilding the CRRLI, yes, that'd probably have to be electric too.
"By 2050, you'll be seeing serious talk of HSR along the center of the LIE. By HSR, I mean 125+mph expresses from Queens out to mid Suffolk. There's nowhere to expand highways anymore. More people are arriving. Something has to give, pure and simple. "
I think by about 2040, suburbia will have reached Riverhead and maybe even as far in as Southampton. By 2050 they should electrify the rest of the LIRR, maybe with the exception of east of Riverhead. I'd actually prefer to see the entire North Fork preserved as Long Island's farming area, but that's just a dream.
" People aren't going to accept changing trains, idling diesels, infrequent service, the noise or pollution from diesels."
If people don't want to deal with the noise/pollution of trains or changing trains, then they shouldn't move someplace where those factors are garaunteed.
"You're not going to be able to sell any reactivations of dormant lines unless they're electric - pure and simple."
For the CRRLI, that is true. For Wading River though, I don't think electrification will be necesary for 15 yrs. And even if it is before then, old off for the 15 yrs until LIRR retires the diesel fleet, then just extend electrification in one long shot all the way from Huntington to Wading River.
So then how's this...electrify to PJ and Patchogue when it comes time to replace the existing diesel fleet, which is probably 15 yrs. I know it's pushing it for the PJ line, but it would be a pretty big waste to do it sooner.
"What the LIRR should be talking about is reactivating out to Wading River"
AMEN! Whether or not to build it as electric is another question. No doubt the population out there is growing like a wild fire, but I doubt a yard out there would sit well, and it'd be a waste of money. Maybe the trains could yard at PJ? Or maybe have Wading River as a 3 or 4 track station, and have 1 train an hour going east of PJ?
Rebuilding the CRRLI, yes, that'd probably have to be electric too.
"By 2050, you'll be seeing serious talk of HSR along the center of the LIE. By HSR, I mean 125+mph expresses from Queens out to mid Suffolk. There's nowhere to expand highways anymore. More people are arriving. Something has to give, pure and simple. "
I think by about 2040, suburbia will have reached Riverhead and maybe even as far in as Southampton. By 2050 they should electrify the rest of the LIRR, maybe with the exception of east of Riverhead. I'd actually prefer to see the entire North Fork preserved as Long Island's farming area, but that's just a dream.
" People aren't going to accept changing trains, idling diesels, infrequent service, the noise or pollution from diesels."
If people don't want to deal with the noise/pollution of trains or changing trains, then they shouldn't move someplace where those factors are garaunteed.
"You're not going to be able to sell any reactivations of dormant lines unless they're electric - pure and simple."
For the CRRLI, that is true. For Wading River though, I don't think electrification will be necesary for 15 yrs. And even if it is before then, old off for the 15 yrs until LIRR retires the diesel fleet, then just extend electrification in one long shot all the way from Huntington to Wading River.
by Nasadowsk
<i>So then how's this...electrify to PJ and Patchogue when it comes time to replace the existing diesel fleet, which is probably 15 yrs. I know it's pushing it for the PJ line, but it would be a pretty big waste to do it sooner. </i>
Ok - that's a good idea. I don't know I the fleet will last that long though - certainly the DE/DMs are stretching it at 15 years.
<i>
AMEN! Whether or not to build it as electric is another question. No doubt the population out there is growing like a wild fire, but I doubt a yard out there would sit well, and it'd be a waste of money.</i>
I think as an initial extension, a set of high performance DMU shuttles could work well. IMHO, the LIRR should be looking seriously at DMU based services to fill in what's not going to get electrified.
<i>Maybe the trains could yard at PJ? Or maybe have Wading River as a 3 or 4 track station, and have 1 train an hour going east of PJ?
Rebuilding the CRRLI, yes, that'd probably have to be electric too. </i>
Yarding at PJ works, IMHO. As for the Central? I'd *love* to see it come back. I don't think you can 'sell' it, though.
<i> I'd actually prefer to see the entire North Fork preserved as Long Island's farming area, but that's just a dream. </i>
Me too. Real estate's too much $$$
<i>If people don't want to deal with the noise/pollution of trains or changing trains, then they shouldn't move someplace where those factors are garaunteed. </i>
That's kind of getting hard You can't live anywhere in Nassau without bumping into the LIRR. And, the DE/DM's noise carries far. At least for low use shuttles - why not DMUs? Near EMU performance with the low noise/pollution of a bus.
<i>For Wading River though, I don't think electrification will be necesary for 15 yrs.</i>
No, not now.
<i>And even if it is before then, old off for the 15 yrs until LIRR retires the diesel fleet, then just extend electrification in one long shot all the way from Huntington to Wading River.</i>
That works. I think realistically, you'll see the need for diesels, but one/two car trains. And that says 'DMU'. And DMUs are better performing and more neighborhood friendly. And like it or not, neighborhood friendly is going to be important in the future
Ok - that's a good idea. I don't know I the fleet will last that long though - certainly the DE/DMs are stretching it at 15 years.
<i>
AMEN! Whether or not to build it as electric is another question. No doubt the population out there is growing like a wild fire, but I doubt a yard out there would sit well, and it'd be a waste of money.</i>
I think as an initial extension, a set of high performance DMU shuttles could work well. IMHO, the LIRR should be looking seriously at DMU based services to fill in what's not going to get electrified.
<i>Maybe the trains could yard at PJ? Or maybe have Wading River as a 3 or 4 track station, and have 1 train an hour going east of PJ?
Rebuilding the CRRLI, yes, that'd probably have to be electric too. </i>
Yarding at PJ works, IMHO. As for the Central? I'd *love* to see it come back. I don't think you can 'sell' it, though.
<i> I'd actually prefer to see the entire North Fork preserved as Long Island's farming area, but that's just a dream. </i>
Me too. Real estate's too much $$$
<i>If people don't want to deal with the noise/pollution of trains or changing trains, then they shouldn't move someplace where those factors are garaunteed. </i>
That's kind of getting hard You can't live anywhere in Nassau without bumping into the LIRR. And, the DE/DM's noise carries far. At least for low use shuttles - why not DMUs? Near EMU performance with the low noise/pollution of a bus.
<i>For Wading River though, I don't think electrification will be necesary for 15 yrs.</i>
No, not now.
<i>And even if it is before then, old off for the 15 yrs until LIRR retires the diesel fleet, then just extend electrification in one long shot all the way from Huntington to Wading River.</i>
That works. I think realistically, you'll see the need for diesels, but one/two car trains. And that says 'DMU'. And DMUs are better performing and more neighborhood friendly. And like it or not, neighborhood friendly is going to be important in the future
by Richard Glueck
"Because coal is the dirtiest way to do anything, and steam locomotives suck hard, which is why everyone scrambled to dump them. They've got no power, lousy traction, kill track, have a high COG, are maintenance disasters, are exceptionally dirty, a pain to run, dangerous as hell, have poor visability, are freezing in the winter, boiling in the summer, and require lots of expensive machinsts to keep running. And they're slow as frozen dog poop".
I think if you are talking about a Camelback burning low grade coal, you might be right on all accounts. Actually, I think there are some good arguments for reviving a type of steam locomotive with a highly, highly, refined fuel system. Towards the close of steam operations in the USA, there were some highly efficient, new tech locomotives on the drafting boards. They never got off the same. A new design of steam locomotive, with micro-processor operation and could be warranted, but nobody is going to pay for a new steam design in this day and age. My original point was made totally tongue-in-cheek. Obviously, you missed my humor.
Ultimately, straight high-speed electric is the way to go. Rebuilding the Wading River branch makes a great deal of sense. How about tying it into the Greenport line?
I think if you are talking about a Camelback burning low grade coal, you might be right on all accounts. Actually, I think there are some good arguments for reviving a type of steam locomotive with a highly, highly, refined fuel system. Towards the close of steam operations in the USA, there were some highly efficient, new tech locomotives on the drafting boards. They never got off the same. A new design of steam locomotive, with micro-processor operation and could be warranted, but nobody is going to pay for a new steam design in this day and age. My original point was made totally tongue-in-cheek. Obviously, you missed my humor.
Ultimately, straight high-speed electric is the way to go. Rebuilding the Wading River branch makes a great deal of sense. How about tying it into the Greenport line?
"We no take-a gasoline. We no take-a airplane. We take-a steamship! And that friends, is how we fly to America! - Chico Marx
by Nasadowsk
<i>Actually, I think there are some good arguments for reviving a type of steam locomotive with a highly, highly, refined fuel system.</i>
And one very simple reason not to - the thermodynamic efficiency of steam locomotives is inherintly a lot lower than diesel or electric. Or, better put, they use more fuel to do the same thing. Which means more fuel to carry, store, burn, buy.
<i> Towards the close of steam operations in the USA, there were some highly efficient, new tech locomotives on the drafting boards.</i>
None could touch the 30% or so overall that even a diesel can do, to say nothing of electrics.
<i> They never got off the same.</i>
Probbably a good idea, long term.
<i> A new design of steam locomotive, with micro-processor operation and could be warranted, but nobody is going to pay for a new steam design in this day and age.</i>
You still end up against the laws of physics on it, which is why every attempt at 'new steam' has died, regardless of what Ross and his ACE and C&O 614 think (and I think the most he ever proved was if you looked the right way and played with the numbers right, you could match diesel's costs on paper at least some time, provided oil's really expensive). Steam's simply dead, it's going to stay dead because the laws of physics killed it. This is partly what's killed turbines, the part power efficiency is simply too low, and in any case, it's they're lower overal than diesels.
And one very simple reason not to - the thermodynamic efficiency of steam locomotives is inherintly a lot lower than diesel or electric. Or, better put, they use more fuel to do the same thing. Which means more fuel to carry, store, burn, buy.
<i> Towards the close of steam operations in the USA, there were some highly efficient, new tech locomotives on the drafting boards.</i>
None could touch the 30% or so overall that even a diesel can do, to say nothing of electrics.
<i> They never got off the same.</i>
Probbably a good idea, long term.
<i> A new design of steam locomotive, with micro-processor operation and could be warranted, but nobody is going to pay for a new steam design in this day and age.</i>
You still end up against the laws of physics on it, which is why every attempt at 'new steam' has died, regardless of what Ross and his ACE and C&O 614 think (and I think the most he ever proved was if you looked the right way and played with the numbers right, you could match diesel's costs on paper at least some time, provided oil's really expensive). Steam's simply dead, it's going to stay dead because the laws of physics killed it. This is partly what's killed turbines, the part power efficiency is simply too low, and in any case, it's they're lower overal than diesels.
by Noel Weaver
With today's technology, steam locomotives on Long Island would NOT be
the answer. I know coal is close by in the USA, coal is plentiful and it is
easy to ship (by rail).
There are too many negatives to present day steam locomotives. It would
take an army of people to keep them on the road, 24 hour facilities where
they are laid up, two people on every train, major facilities at many
locations for water, coal and fire cleaning.
Passengers (the public) use the trains as a quick, convenient and economical means of transportation between two points. Steam engines
tend to be dirty and noisy and they will not attract people to the trains.
Railfans maybe for one or two trips but that would be about it.
One point mentioned earlier about steam engines being slower than
something, NOT SO, they will take a moderate train above 30 MPH and
will run like the wind with the diesels and all. Peak efficiency is at higher
speeds with a steam locomotive.
In my opinion the LIRR should extend the electrification to: 1. Port Jefferson, 2. Patchogue/Speonk and 3. Oyster Bay.
They could then make do with the existing equipment to Montauk and
Greenport mostly as shuttle service except the summer timetable with
through trains from Long Island City/Hunterspoint Avenue to/from Montauk. In connection with an extension of the electrification to Patchogue, the Central Branch would also need to be electrified.
As for double tracking, I think a modernized signal system to Patchogue
and Speonk would be in order but a lot of trains can be handled on a
single track railroad with a decent, modern signal system.
As for Montauk, for now maybe a settlement between the state of New
York and Amtrak would allow for the Turbo Trains that Amtrak does not
really want much to do with could be transferred to the LIRR and operated
between either Penn Station, Hunterspoint Avenue or Jamaica and Montauk. For the money that was spent on the things, they ought to be
able to get at least a few years out of them. If it is not practical to run
them off the third rail, they certainally could still run them out of Long
Island City or Jamaica.
Before anyone on here gets any ideas, third rail electric operation of the
Turbo Trains is practical only in the tunnels under the river.
Noel Weaver
the answer. I know coal is close by in the USA, coal is plentiful and it is
easy to ship (by rail).
There are too many negatives to present day steam locomotives. It would
take an army of people to keep them on the road, 24 hour facilities where
they are laid up, two people on every train, major facilities at many
locations for water, coal and fire cleaning.
Passengers (the public) use the trains as a quick, convenient and economical means of transportation between two points. Steam engines
tend to be dirty and noisy and they will not attract people to the trains.
Railfans maybe for one or two trips but that would be about it.
One point mentioned earlier about steam engines being slower than
something, NOT SO, they will take a moderate train above 30 MPH and
will run like the wind with the diesels and all. Peak efficiency is at higher
speeds with a steam locomotive.
In my opinion the LIRR should extend the electrification to: 1. Port Jefferson, 2. Patchogue/Speonk and 3. Oyster Bay.
They could then make do with the existing equipment to Montauk and
Greenport mostly as shuttle service except the summer timetable with
through trains from Long Island City/Hunterspoint Avenue to/from Montauk. In connection with an extension of the electrification to Patchogue, the Central Branch would also need to be electrified.
As for double tracking, I think a modernized signal system to Patchogue
and Speonk would be in order but a lot of trains can be handled on a
single track railroad with a decent, modern signal system.
As for Montauk, for now maybe a settlement between the state of New
York and Amtrak would allow for the Turbo Trains that Amtrak does not
really want much to do with could be transferred to the LIRR and operated
between either Penn Station, Hunterspoint Avenue or Jamaica and Montauk. For the money that was spent on the things, they ought to be
able to get at least a few years out of them. If it is not practical to run
them off the third rail, they certainally could still run them out of Long
Island City or Jamaica.
Before anyone on here gets any ideas, third rail electric operation of the
Turbo Trains is practical only in the tunnels under the river.
Noel Weaver
by NIMBYkiller
"I think as an initial extension, a set of high performance DMU shuttles could work well. IMHO, the LIRR should be looking seriously at DMU based services to fill in what's not going to get electrified. "
Agreed. I'm thinking Colorado Rail Car. Any other DMU choices out there?
"Yarding at PJ works, IMHO. As for the Central? I'd *love* to see it come back. I don't think you can 'sell' it, though. "
Why not? I know it'll be tough getting it past all those houses. Still, if they electrify it, it should be fairly quite. I think that with the right support, it'll come to be.
"You can't live anywhere in Nassau without bumping into the LIRR"
Yes, but I'm talking about out east, in newer residential communities, where people, for the most part, have a choice.
" And, the DE/DM's noise carries far."
True that. I live in a valley in Port Washington and I hear OB trains all the time. Then again, I was able to hear them with the Geeps too.
" At least for low use shuttles - why not DMUs? Near EMU performance with the low noise/pollution of a bus. "
Again, I totally agree. Hell, use it for any non-electrified line. So basically, east of Riverhead and Southampton. And should the MTA get its head out of it's 1950 ass, maybe they'll realize there's a market for intra-island service, even out there. Then they can use the DMUs for that. (Here's something you guys will say is a pipe dream: rebuild the manorville-eastport and use the DMUs to run Montauk-Ronkonkoma).
"Ultimately, straight high-speed electric is the way to go. Rebuilding the Wading River branch makes a great deal of sense. How about tying it into the Greenport line?"
You mean like it was originally planned to. That's something I brought up a while ago. By the time any of these things are done, there probably will be demand for this. Originally I was going to say that when they retire the existing diesel fleet, electrify to PJ. Then re-extend the line, as diesel, out to Wading River, and then even further out to Riverhead, where it would merge with the Greenport line.
Then, by 2030, extend electrification east of PJ to Riverhead. And by 2040 extend electrification east of Ronkonkoma to Riverhead.
"In my opinion the LIRR should extend the electrification to: 1. Port Jefferson, 2. Patchogue/Speonk and 3. Oyster Bay. "
Electrifying OB will probably never be worth it. The line is just too curvy and hilly for anything to get any real speed.
And BTW, LIRR does have NYP trains from Montauk off season too.
"the Central Branch would also need to be electrified. "
Definately. Then run electrics from Patchogue, up the central and main to Jamaica, some maybe even further east to FBA/NYP/GCT
"As for double tracking, I think a modernized signal system to Patchogue
and Speonk would be in order but a lot of trains can be handled on a
single track railroad with a decent, modern signal system. "
No way. Double track to Riverhead and Southampton. The Ronkonkoma line is single track and that thing is choking b/c of it. Advanced signal systems can only work for so long. It's time to double track.
"As for Montauk, for now maybe a settlement between the state of New
York and Amtrak would allow for the Turbo Trains that Amtrak does not
really want much to do with could be transferred to the LIRR and operated
between either Penn Station, Hunterspoint Avenue or Jamaica and Montauk."
Doubtful. In the summer, I'd like to see Montauk service running Manhattan-Sunnyside-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Babylon-Bay Shore-Sayville-Patchogue-Westhampton, all stops to Montauk.
If the whole thing with the Amtrak stuff does happen, then maybe use them for hampton express trains. Manhattan-Sunnyside-Jamaica-Mineola or Hicksville-Babylon-maybe Patchogue-Westhampton-Southampton-East Hampton-Montauk.
Those would run as commuter runs all year round. One run early in the morning westbound, and another in the evening eastbound.
Can the Turbos get into GCT?
"Before anyone on here gets any ideas, third rail electric operation of the
Turbo Trains is practical only in the tunnels under the river."
So basically, they're DMs, just without the spontaneous combustion and fire balls and what not, lol.
Agreed. I'm thinking Colorado Rail Car. Any other DMU choices out there?
"Yarding at PJ works, IMHO. As for the Central? I'd *love* to see it come back. I don't think you can 'sell' it, though. "
Why not? I know it'll be tough getting it past all those houses. Still, if they electrify it, it should be fairly quite. I think that with the right support, it'll come to be.
"You can't live anywhere in Nassau without bumping into the LIRR"
Yes, but I'm talking about out east, in newer residential communities, where people, for the most part, have a choice.
" And, the DE/DM's noise carries far."
True that. I live in a valley in Port Washington and I hear OB trains all the time. Then again, I was able to hear them with the Geeps too.
" At least for low use shuttles - why not DMUs? Near EMU performance with the low noise/pollution of a bus. "
Again, I totally agree. Hell, use it for any non-electrified line. So basically, east of Riverhead and Southampton. And should the MTA get its head out of it's 1950 ass, maybe they'll realize there's a market for intra-island service, even out there. Then they can use the DMUs for that. (Here's something you guys will say is a pipe dream: rebuild the manorville-eastport and use the DMUs to run Montauk-Ronkonkoma).
"Ultimately, straight high-speed electric is the way to go. Rebuilding the Wading River branch makes a great deal of sense. How about tying it into the Greenport line?"
You mean like it was originally planned to. That's something I brought up a while ago. By the time any of these things are done, there probably will be demand for this. Originally I was going to say that when they retire the existing diesel fleet, electrify to PJ. Then re-extend the line, as diesel, out to Wading River, and then even further out to Riverhead, where it would merge with the Greenport line.
Then, by 2030, extend electrification east of PJ to Riverhead. And by 2040 extend electrification east of Ronkonkoma to Riverhead.
"In my opinion the LIRR should extend the electrification to: 1. Port Jefferson, 2. Patchogue/Speonk and 3. Oyster Bay. "
Electrifying OB will probably never be worth it. The line is just too curvy and hilly for anything to get any real speed.
And BTW, LIRR does have NYP trains from Montauk off season too.
"the Central Branch would also need to be electrified. "
Definately. Then run electrics from Patchogue, up the central and main to Jamaica, some maybe even further east to FBA/NYP/GCT
"As for double tracking, I think a modernized signal system to Patchogue
and Speonk would be in order but a lot of trains can be handled on a
single track railroad with a decent, modern signal system. "
No way. Double track to Riverhead and Southampton. The Ronkonkoma line is single track and that thing is choking b/c of it. Advanced signal systems can only work for so long. It's time to double track.
"As for Montauk, for now maybe a settlement between the state of New
York and Amtrak would allow for the Turbo Trains that Amtrak does not
really want much to do with could be transferred to the LIRR and operated
between either Penn Station, Hunterspoint Avenue or Jamaica and Montauk."
Doubtful. In the summer, I'd like to see Montauk service running Manhattan-Sunnyside-Jamaica-Mineola-Hicksville-Babylon-Bay Shore-Sayville-Patchogue-Westhampton, all stops to Montauk.
If the whole thing with the Amtrak stuff does happen, then maybe use them for hampton express trains. Manhattan-Sunnyside-Jamaica-Mineola or Hicksville-Babylon-maybe Patchogue-Westhampton-Southampton-East Hampton-Montauk.
Those would run as commuter runs all year round. One run early in the morning westbound, and another in the evening eastbound.
Can the Turbos get into GCT?
"Before anyone on here gets any ideas, third rail electric operation of the
Turbo Trains is practical only in the tunnels under the river."
So basically, they're DMs, just without the spontaneous combustion and fire balls and what not, lol.
by alcoc420
Suffolk County's saturation population is only 13% over the year 2000 population. Huntington and Smithtown are 90 to 95% developed. Babylon is probably 98%. The permited densities in the east end towns is about 2 acres per family.
The suburbs have already reached Riverhead and Southampton. Note the numerous large subdivisions north of CR58. Much of the open space seen in eastern Suffolk County is already preserved. Pretty much: what you see is all you're going to get. Sure, we will see lots of development on the east end, but statistically the population increase will not be dramatic when looking at the county as a whole.
Rail has limited use in east end transportation. In western Suffolk only 5 to 10% of commuters use the LIRR. This is a significant, but small number. The LIRR is used even less for other trips: school, shopping, recreation, etc. Most users are NYC bound. The east end is too far from Manhattan attract as many potential users. The LIRR's average speed is about 30MPH. This is typical for most rail systems, and has not changed much in 100 years.
People moving to the east end are moving to homes about 30 to 60 minutes from their jobs. These job locations are dispersed, but perhaps a little concentrated around Route 110, Deer Park, Hauppauge, and Bohemia.
This does not mean rail is insignificant. Rail should be as useful to eastern Suffolk as it is to western. To do this, one-hour headways off-peak should be a goal. The staffing, equipment, tracks, signals, etc. should be selected based this or some similar service goals.
The suburbs have already reached Riverhead and Southampton. Note the numerous large subdivisions north of CR58. Much of the open space seen in eastern Suffolk County is already preserved. Pretty much: what you see is all you're going to get. Sure, we will see lots of development on the east end, but statistically the population increase will not be dramatic when looking at the county as a whole.
Rail has limited use in east end transportation. In western Suffolk only 5 to 10% of commuters use the LIRR. This is a significant, but small number. The LIRR is used even less for other trips: school, shopping, recreation, etc. Most users are NYC bound. The east end is too far from Manhattan attract as many potential users. The LIRR's average speed is about 30MPH. This is typical for most rail systems, and has not changed much in 100 years.
People moving to the east end are moving to homes about 30 to 60 minutes from their jobs. These job locations are dispersed, but perhaps a little concentrated around Route 110, Deer Park, Hauppauge, and Bohemia.
This does not mean rail is insignificant. Rail should be as useful to eastern Suffolk as it is to western. To do this, one-hour headways off-peak should be a goal. The staffing, equipment, tracks, signals, etc. should be selected based this or some similar service goals.