Minimum for HSR

What would be the minimum speed for something to be called High Speed Rail? 90 mph? 110 mph? I ask because they're improving the Keystone Corridor tracks near me to 110 mph. Parts of this track between Paoli and Harrisburg are 90 mph, and I have taken the diesel-powered Pennsylvanian both ways with my GPS showing around 90 mph top speed.

High speed rail is concidered higher that 125 mph

In the USA, it's 90 mph or faster (AIR, that's the FRA definition). Way slower than the international definition posted by DRN...

Irish Chieftain wrote:In the USA, it's 90 mph or faster (AIR, that's the FRA definition). Way slower than the international definition posted by DRN...

I find it saddening that my daily commuter train (100mph) is considered "high speed rail" by the FRA.

My understanding is that high speed rail in Europe requires a COMMERCIAL speed of 200 km/hr or for us, 125 mph. Thus Boston New York (Penn) would take about 1 hr. 50 min (229 mi) Part of a line can be high speed and that is often the case in Europe so if Boston Prov. was 21 min.. that would be HSR but slower sections would not. Top speed is not considered
in the classification so, high speed equipment does not make HSR. England, for instance has fast trains but no HSR. (several just over or under 100mph) LS

My understanding is that high speed rail in Europe requires a COMMERCIAL speed of 200 km/hr or for us, 125 mph. Thus Boston New York (Penn) would take about 1 hr. 50 min (229 mi)

What do you mean by "commercial speed"? Maximum speed or average speed? You need an average speed of 125 mph to get from Boston to NYC in 1 hour 50 minutes. We'd need a TGV Thalys (top speed 186 mph) at least to achieve such an average speed.

England, for instance has fast trains but no HSR. (several just over or under 100mph)

Again, the average speed question is raised. England has operated the HST at a top speed of 125 mph for quite a long time.

Anything above 110m.p.h. is considered high speed rail in the USA. But true high speed rail around the world as was said before is 125m.p.h. But remember this is when these speed are sustained over time and miles of track. We don't need a thayls to obtain this time between nyp-bos. The Acela is a true high speed train remember we have a top speed of 170 m.p.h. But due to track conditions we can't obtain these speeds.

Just in case there is any doubt regarding the definition in my earlier post, the timing for HSR is from an advertised standing start (scheduled stop) to and advertised full stop (scheduled) over one stretch or over an entire line with intermediate stops. Speeds well over 125 mph are necessary to achieve this. I would not think that special runs would fully qualify.
The 125s in Britain, excellent though they are, don't qualify. They seem to have a practical maximum of about 135, not enough, unfortunately there was no further development of the design. That said, I personally suspect that if anyone wanted to do the arithmetic they might find that the average speed of British trains to be the highest in the world.

Leo Sullivan wrote:Just in case there is any doubt regarding the definition in my earlier post, the timing for HSR is from an advertised standing start (scheduled stop) to and advertised full stop (scheduled) over one stretch or over an entire line with intermediate stops. Speeds well over 125 mph are necessary to achieve this. I would not think that special runs would fully qualify.
The 125s in Britain, excellent though they are, don't qualify. They seem to have a practical maximum of about 135, not enough, unfortunately there was no further development of the design. That said, I personally suspect that if anyone wanted to do the arithmetic they might find that the average speed of British trains to be the highest in the world.

When the HST 125s were introduced in the 1970s they saved the Inter City network. They were a great improvement on what had been there before. But even then the French were pioneering genuine high speed with the new Lyon route. On the other side of the world Japan was pioneering even higher speed using the same principle as the French - building a dedicated route.

The British HST used already existing routes, and apart from electrification was probably doing the best possible with these existing routes. Of course the routes it did best on were the GWR which had been engineered for speed from the beginning and the East Coast mainline also well engineered. On more curvy routes, such as down to Cornwall, and on the Midlend Mainline they didn't do so well.

The East coast has since been electrified, and it's a pity the Western line isn't electrified too.

the timing for HSR is from an advertised standing start (scheduled stop) to and advertised full stop (scheduled) over one stretch or over an entire line with intermediate stops. Speeds well over 125 mph are necessary to achieve this

IOW, average speed. I think most of us can get that. The term "commercial speed" doesn't have as concrete of a definition, though, as the term "average speed", which is a scientific term.

The 125s in Britain, excellent though they are, don't qualify. They seem to have a practical maximum of about 135, not enough, unfortunately there was no further development of the design

The HST 125s had IIRC a top tested speed of 143 mph—not bad for a total of 4400 horsepower, but acceleration has been compromised per anecdotes. (FTR, the Class 67 single-unit diesel also hit 143 mph in tests—and at one time, there was a single-cab version on the drawing boards, to be used as a possible power car for HST replacement trains, which would have resulted in a 6400-horsepower train.) The fastest diesel-electric trainset thus far has been the Talgo XXI prototype, which hit 152 mph.

I personally suspect that if anyone wanted to do the arithmetic they might find that the average speed of British trains to be the highest in the world

In order for that to be true, then Britain would have to have a network of the fastest high-speed trains in the world, something they do not have. The train operating with the fastest speeds on British soil is the Eurostar, and even after achieving 186 mph on the British side of the Channel, it's still not fast enough to catch the fastest average speeds on the AVE, TGV and ICE networks. AFAIK, the record for highest average speed in revenue service belongs to certain scheduled trips on the Sanyo Shinkansen in Japan.

My statement (just a slightly educated guess) included everything and considered that Britain might have the fastest slow trains in the world, a factor more likely to effect the overall average. If EVERY train in Britain averaged 45mph I suspect that would more than do it and go a long way toward making it the best railway. More people are interested in getting to Brighton in 45 min., ten times a week, than to Europe quickly every so often and, there is no real commutation alternative.
Commercial speed is a technical term used in the industry and specifically means Scheduled stop to scheduled stop, or as put above, advertised stop. Average speed could be, for instance a moving average say between two named places where the train did not stop. As for the 125s top speed consider that no one in the industry would have considered Mallard good for 137 mph in real service. Tests and demonstrations dont make any difference to the passengers unless something comes of it.
LS

My statement (just a slightly educated guess) included everything and considered that Britain might have the fastest slow trains in the world, a factor more likely to effect the overall average. If EVERY train in Britain averaged 45mph I suspect that would more than do it and go a long way toward making it the best railway. More people are interested in getting to Brighton in 45 min., ten times a week, than to Europe quickly every so often and, there is no real commutation alternative.
Commercial speed is a technical term used in the industry and specifically means Scheduled stop to scheduled stop, or as put above, advertised stop. Average speed could be, for instance a moving average say between two named places where the train did not stop. As for the 125s top speed consider that no one in the industry would have considered Mallard good for 137 mph in real service. Tests and demonstrations dont make any difference to the passengers unless something comes of it.
LS

The average speeds for HSR systems around the world I've been able to find are (1):

Japan: 164 MPH
France: 158 MPH
Germany: 125 MPH
Italy: 103 MPH
Britain (London-York): 112 MPH

And my own calculations produce:

Acela (NYP-WAS): 82.2 MPH
Keystone (PHL-HAR): 69.1 MPH
Proposed Pennsylvanian (PHL-PGH): 65.2 MPH

The Proposed Pennsylvanian route is 5:25 over 352 miles from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh (2). It currently takes 7:35 for an average of 46 MPH.

The Piedmont in NC currently averages 56.5 mph by the schedule but regularly finishes the 178-mile run in 3:02, averaging 58.7 mph.

There are a series of programmed improvements between Raleigh and Charlotte which are supposed to bring running time down to 2:50, for an average speed of 62.8 mph, that will probably be completed by 2010.

NCDOT is doing this mostly through straightening curves and adding superelevation.

The SEHSR project envisions a whole other level of improvements that would get the RGH-CLT running time down to 2:20 by limiting the train to 5 stops in NC, or 2:30 making the present-day (plus 1 new station) 10 stops. Those average speeds would be 76.4 mph and 71.2 mph, respectively.

We're a long way off from France, Japan, et al, aren't we?