Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

First of all, as taxed as Park Av is, NYP is even worse. How do you suggest making room at NYP for the MN trains? And Amtrak is not going to run across the bridge just so those few communities can have service to Albany and NY. It'd be rediculous to have the same route just across the river.

I knew Hudson was not doable, but would the Harlem connection really be that difficult? I agree that downtown WP is impossible to get through. It'll either have to be a full 287 LRT, or heavy rail to WP, and light rail to the NH line(and hopefully to Stamford at that).

Heavy rail to GCT would require extending the short runs onto this line(which I think only exist in the morning, a very big problem), otherwise, there wont be enough space for the service to be reasonable. Either Dutch or Noel said there's space for maybe a few more trains, and 3 I doubt 3 trains is going to attract many GCT riders. Either that, or they could attract more riders than they can handle. Either way, it wont be a good situation. I think this project should just focus on cross westchester. I'm with SecaucusJunction on this one. Just look at a map. You can see that running an NYC train via the Tappan Zee is out of the way.

The loop at Secaucus Junction is not a definate thing, AFAIK. Personally, I think it'd be a rediculous waste of money. WoH trains would pass through Secaucus Jct, a multi million dollar NEW station built specifically for the transfer, twice. It's a joke that so much money has been spent on this station and now, just a few years later, they're going to make it completely obsolete.

BTW, Sarge, you've got a PM

NIMBY wrote:MTA blew it with JFK. They owned a single track ROW into the airport, and decided not to bother with it

What single-track ROW would this be?

And how would anything within JFK not be PANYNJ property? The PA calls the shots as to what runs into the airport.

Sarge wrote:There's no feasible physical connection to Hudson or Harlem lines due to grade and visual impact

That's opinion, not fact. What of the "visual impact" of the existing road bridge?

Irish Chieftain wrote:And how would anything within JFK not be PANYNJ property?

PANYNJ doesn't own JFK or LGA. They operate them under long-term leases. The City of New York owns both airports.

Irish Chieftain wrote:

Sarge wrote:There's no feasible physical connection to Hudson or Harlem lines due to grade and visual impact

That's opinion, not fact. What of the "visual impact" of the existing road bridge?

True enough, it's opinion. Without looking at topographical maps, I can't tell you the actual grade difference between the TZB and Hudson, or 287 and the Harlem, and I'm not saying it's physically impossible, just that it's not feasible. Look earlier in the thread for my thoughts as to why.

Briefly, given the host of engineering issues, I think the ticket is light rail. [/list]

Let's focus this conversation, shall we? So far we've been as far north as Stewart and as far south as JFK. Let's focus on the proposed Port Chester-Suffern fantasy corridor.

Otto--
"fantasty corridor?"
Several NY State agencies are working on studies for this corridor. True, they are working at a snail's pace. But, I have hopes that my children will see rail service on this corridor.

For anyone who has driven over the Tappan Zee Bridge, I would like you to tell me how anyone could drop a track running over that bridge onto the Hudson Line. You would either need a roller coaster like drop or a ridiculous helix in order to try that. I'm not familiar with the White Plains area but I'm sure its not much better (and much further out of the way).

SecaucusJunction--
I don't think the issue of how to connect to the Hudson line has been resolved although it has been acknowledged as a problem. You can look at the tzbsite website to read what they have, or you can go to one of the meetings that are held from time to time to discuss the possibilities. The website is http://www.tzbsite.com/
I also don't see how they could connect to the Hudson line. When a tunnel was one of the options, that seemed to offer a better shot, but that was ruled out because of cost.
I think the best they could do is have a station on the bridge line with a passenger elevator to the Hudson line.

JoeG wrote:I think the best they could do is have a station on the bridge line with a passenger elevator to the Hudson line.

Unless you have a grade-separated junction on the bridge, the best you can do is to take the ROW through Irvington and on to the Thruway, almost like a RR jug-handle turn. Taking property in Westchester won't be cheap or easy, so I would suspect such a configuration to rate low on the list of options.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... c&start=21

JoeG - We should know end of February. Apparently, the study group has addressed all of the engineering issues, such as grade separation, or excessive grade (87 on Rockland side, 287 over Saw Mill on W'Chester side). They specifically mentioned crossing the PIP.

Otto - doesn't the study include a link or expansion to Stewart? That may be a later phase, but I think it was included. I have to say I don't agree with the fantasy label, either. They'll find the money somewhere, just like they did for ESA, or the bridge will drop into the briny deep. Or did your quip pass over my head? Wouldn't be the first time

Nester - I don't think it's part of the study, and am begging Otto's indulgence, but I like the Thruway idea (the entire route, not thru Irvington, down to the old Put ROW in da Bronnix. You could find available ROW for heavy rail, but that would mean a light rail connection into WP and PC. I still think we end up with light rail due to ROW and grade considerations. I think it's a less expensive option, too, and don't think a Thruway route is as vital as a X-WChester route.

JoeG wrote: I think the best they could do is have a station on the bridge line with a passenger elevator to the Hudson line.

If they are going to do that, you might as well just go through Secaucus!

Sarge wrote:Nester - I don't think it's part of the study, and am begging Otto's indulgence, but I like the Thruway idea (the entire route, not thru Irvington, down to the old Put ROW in da Bronnix. You could find available ROW for heavy rail, but that would mean a light rail connection into WP and PC. I still think we end up with light rail due to ROW and grade considerations. I think it's a less expensive option, too, and don't think a Thruway route is as vital as a X-WChester route.

Personally, I would like to see phase 1 be a cross-Westchester route that terminates with a rail connection at Port Chester. Phase 2 could be a direct land connection with the Hudson line for through service to GCT. Phase 3 could be a connection with existing lines WoH.

Burying all of this rail expansion under the banner of "a replacement TZB" is a recipe for disappointment. Once they build the bridge with heavy rail capacity (which will, undoubtedly, attract freight traffic as well), you should be able to conisider system expansion methodically.

Otto, everything was just a fantasy at one point. I bet when news of ESA came out you said it was a fantasy or pipe dream. So don't be so quick to sell this project short. And BTW, Stewart is going to keep comming up and IS relavent because it IS part of this whole project. Personally, I think it's the only good reason to even bother with a service to NYC being provided via the Tappan Zee(you'll get more riders with a one seat ride since it's a new service and commuters are already used to transfering, and also, Stewart needs to be made ATTRACTIVE to airlines and passengers, and a 2 seat service isn't going to do that as effectively as a one seat service will). So please stop trying to keep Stewart talks out because they are a major part of this project.

I agree with Sarge. A cross westchester route is far more important than a thruway or whatever route to Manhattan. It has been said several times already that the vast majority of Tappan Zee traffic is cross westchester traffic.

SecaucusJunction is definately right though that if you're going to make the Manhattan service a transfer service, the passengers might as well ride to Secaucus as they currently do and switch there(or Hoboken for PATH, w/e). Still, a station for a connection(Yonkers I believe has some offices somewhere) would help enhance the regional system, but is not necessary. That can come at a later date.

Nester, the problem is that it's unknown if a full cross westchester commuter rail line can be built. That is the big problem. Otherwise your 3 phase plan is just fine.

Does anyone know if connecting White Plains and Stamford is a big goal of this project? If not, perhaps this(since the main problem seems to be routing a cross county line through downtown White Plains):
287 commuter rail bypassing White Plains, with TPZ service making White Plains via a Harlem line connection at White Plains for Manhattan service.

So with that, you get WoH to White Plains, the NH, and Manhattan. The downfall is you don't get White Plains to anywhere east of there.

I still feel as though bringing the Port Jervis Line to connect to the Hudson Line (if it were even possible) will not attract that many riders. Even though it is a 1 seat ride is good, the route is probably going to be longer. I am not sure of the exact mileage between the two towns, but on my quick mapquest search, it showed about 18.5 miles between the two cities. For a train to traverse this, it would probably take a good half hour or 35 minutes. From Tarrytown to Grand Central is probably about 45 minutes if I remember correctly. Put these numbers together and you are talking around an hour and twenty minutes. Through Secaucus, you can make it to NYC easily in under an hour if the train is express. Wouldnt a simple change in Secaucus be a lot better than spending a half hour more on a train?

The transfer at Secaucus is better than nothing but it has several problems. One is the lack of a one-seat ride. More important is that you end up at Penn Station, while most jobs are on the East Side. When I commuted via Secaucus to Penn Station, it took a half hour to get to my East Side job.
If NJ Transit had continued its new tunnel to the East Side, as NJ-ARP long advocated, there would be less need for a connection to the Hudson or Harlem lines. But NJT didn't do that, so West of Hudson riders are still second-class citizens compared to East of Hudson or, now, Long Island riders. The MTA is spending a lot of money to give Long Island riders a one seat ride to the East Side; why shouldn't we in Rockland and Orange counties get the same treatment?