Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

Nexis4Jersey wrote:
White Plains , New Brunswick , Stamford are all in the same league , there booming Satilite cities. Employees seem to sending the message to employers that they rather work in an Urban Environment....where they can go out to lunch or too the park on there breaks without driving. Poughkeepsie isn't even in the same league as the 3 I just listed , its in the Commuter city-suburb league which includes cities / towns like Morristown ,Norwalk , and Rahway.... The Difference between Long Island and the rest of the region is , LI was built mostly around the car , while the suburbs in NJ and Westchester were built around the Trains and walkablity... There really isn't any room to build any more parks , Westchester , Hudson , Bergen , Essex , Fairfield , Union and Passaic counties will run out of reusable land by 2030. Recently several large companies have moved from the suburbs to the Urban cores in this region due to tax breaks and it being cheaper in the long run.....

im gunna have to challenge that theory, Long Island has a much more extensive rail network and had many of its towns before the rise of suburbia built around the train stations, its the middle part that came later, levittown and the building out, away from the stations and the suffolk county expansion. Plus Westchester is no different, it was Robert Moses country too, I think what really got White Plains to take off was it was the biggest city along I-287 and then when the TAppan Zee Bridge was built, it was a lot easier for people in Rockland and Northern NJ to go there. I dont have that much knowledge of Jersey cuz im hardly ever there, but Ive been up and down Westchester, its not all built up like you say. Yea the part near the Bronx is, but once you get out on the Sprain Brook Parkway and the Taconic it starts to thin out quite a bit, as well as along I-684.

lilbluefoxie wrote:

Nexis4Jersey wrote:
White Plains , New Brunswick , Stamford are all in the same league , there booming Satilite cities. Employees seem to sending the message to employers that they rather work in an Urban Environment....where they can go out to lunch or too the park on there breaks without driving. Poughkeepsie isn't even in the same league as the 3 I just listed , its in the Commuter city-suburb league which includes cities / towns like Morristown ,Norwalk , and Rahway.... The Difference between Long Island and the rest of the region is , LI was built mostly around the car , while the suburbs in NJ and Westchester were built around the Trains and walkablity... There really isn't any room to build any more parks , Westchester , Hudson , Bergen , Essex , Fairfield , Union and Passaic counties will run out of reusable land by 2030. Recently several large companies have moved from the suburbs to the Urban cores in this region due to tax breaks and it being cheaper in the long run.....

im gunna have to challenge that theory, Long Island has a much more extensive rail network and had many of its towns before the rise of suburbia built around the train stations, its the middle part that came later, levittown and the building out, away from the stations and the suffolk county expansion. Plus Westchester is no different, it was Robert Moses country too, I think what really got White Plains to take off was it was the biggest city along I-287 and then when the TAppan Zee Bridge was built, it was a lot easier for people in Rockland and Northern NJ to go there. I dont have that much knowledge of Jersey cuz im hardly ever there, but Ive been up and down Westchester, its not all built up like you say. Yea the part near the Bronx is, but once you get out on the Sprain Brook Parkway and the Taconic it starts to thin out quite a bit, as well as along I-684.

But compared to NJ and Westchester its just pure sprawl on LI , you have very few dense cores with the exception of Mineola. Your towns are mostly built around the car and most of Long Islanders have bad walkablity in there towns thus they use the car more then Westchester or Jersey. South of I-287 is where westchester is dense or where the Dense suburbs are... As for NJ the transit suburbs are inside the I-287 loop...

western nassau in that elmont, franklin square, valley stream area is basically the same as eastern queens except the houses are slightly spaced further apart, Nassau has two areas that could be considered urban, Mineola and Hempstead (hempstead especially cuz its ghetto over there).

Yea i forgot about those big towers along I-95 near New Rochelle. Either way I cant see a cross county commuter rail service having any sort of ridership, look at the (G), it doesn't have the ridership of the other lines. Im also wondering why they never considered possibly adding a track connection near Secacus Junction to allow trains to go either to Hoboken or Penn Station.

How well is the TZX buses used? I have no idea, every time ive been to Westchester and it wasnt for railfanning Metro-North I drove up there.

I think BRT is a sensible alternative, and I'm no BRT fan. One of my issues with CRT in this corridor is that there is no one "center" along 287 that BRT would serve efficiently on a point-to-point basis. I think CRT works in the sense of connectivity, which BRT would not provide, by providing connections (direct in relation to the Hudson line and perhaps New Haven, transfer to Harlem). My other preference for CRT would be obviating the need for NJT to operate PJ trains and connecting to the east side of Manhattan.

BRT is a good first step cross-county. I still think they should do the CRT to the Hudson.

Jeff Smith wrote: My other preference for CRT would be obviating the need for NJT to operate PJ trains and connecting to the east side of Manhattan.

that's why I don't see the need for a cross county rail line that goes over the tappan zee. Rockland and Orange already have two Metro North/NJT lines, Pascack Valley and Port Jervis that connect to Penn Station via Secacus Junction. the only type of rail that I could see this being a big boon to is Freight so they have a proper way across the Hudson since they destroyed the Poughkipsee bridge.

it would be the equivalent of someone on long island trying to build a rail line down Route 135 to connect the main line and babylon branches where you could just take the line you live closest by to Penn Station.

lilbluefoxie wrote: the only type of rail that I could see this being a big boon to is Freight so they have a proper way across the Hudson since they destroyed the Poughkipsee bridge.

The Poughkeepsie Bridge was still standing since last time I was in Poughkeepsie. Albeit, no rail!

Nexis4Jersey wrote:But compared to NJ and Westchester its just pure sprawl on LI , you have very few dense cores with the exception of Mineola. Your towns are mostly built around the car and most of Long Islanders have bad walkablity in there towns thus they use the car more then Westchester or Jersey. South of I-287 is where westchester is dense or where the Dense suburbs are... As for NJ the transit suburbs are inside the I-287 loop...

From the Census Bureau:
The 11th most densely populated place in the US is Great Neck Plaza. The population density in Nassau County is 4,704 people per square mile. The population density in Westchester is 2,204

Ferry service from Nyack connecting to MN Hudson line may be practical since it could serve eastern Rockland County commuters adequately. Yes, Nyack would never allow it based on fears that every commuter in the county will drive in and yes it would be a two-seat ride to GCT.

A newly constructed TZB leaves the option of a possible Ferry landing at the Rockland shoreline once the existing TZB is demolished??

A more ideal Ferry location connecting to the Hudson line would be at some point btw the existing TZB & GWB- as it would divert your Manhattan-bound and Westchester-bound commuters away from one another and tap into a larger share of NNJ commuters but I assume parkland, parking & politics plays a big problem in this.

Central & western Rockland Counties already have the PVL & PJL. The focus there should be upgrading those line to improve speed of service and providing an upgrade downsteam- e.g. 7 line expansion to Secaucus or policy actions in Manhattan's CBD (congestion pricing).

Of course I favor rail & BRT across a new TZB but since cost is the issue I thought I might suggest possible mass transit alternatives.

Adirondacker wrote:

Nexis4Jersey wrote:But compared to NJ and Westchester its just pure sprawl on LI , you have very few dense cores with the exception of Mineola. Your towns are mostly built around the car and most of Long Islanders have bad walkablity in there towns thus they use the car more then Westchester or Jersey. South of I-287 is where westchester is dense or where the Dense suburbs are... As for NJ the transit suburbs are inside the I-287 loop...

From the Census Bureau:
The 11th most densely populated place in the US is Great Neck Plaza. The population density in Nassau County is 4,704 people per square mile. The population density in Westchester is 2,204

Great Neck plaza is 90% apartments and businesses, its the part right near Great Neck Station.

At one point I too thought the idea of a cross-county Rockland/Westchester CRT was absolutely ridiculous. However, when I began to really look into it -- the NYS Thruway Authority and NYDOT websites had some great stuff -- I slowly began to change my mind.

It's also not true that commuter rail lines ONLY exist from suburbs to the downtowns of major cities. California has two. One called ACE is in the Bay Area and connects suburbs with a huge office/industrial complex not located in a major city. The other is one of the southern California MetroLink routes that doesn't go to LA. It runs from the eastern suburbs to Orange County, primarily Anaheim and Irvine. Both lines have been fairly successful.

I think another decent example is ShoreLineEast. That connects suburbs with the city of New Haven. The population of New Haven is not too much greater I think then the 200,000 plus daytime population in White Plains.

And as the gent from Japan noted, suburb-to-suburb commuter rail lines are fairly common throughout Asia and Europe.

Plus the fact something has never been done before is not a good reason to reject it.

lilbluefoxie wrote:

Adirondacker wrote:

Nexis4Jersey wrote:But compared to NJ and Westchester its just pure sprawl on LI , you have very few dense cores with the exception of Mineola. Your towns are mostly built around the car and most of Long Islanders have bad walkablity in there towns thus they use the car more then Westchester or Jersey. South of I-287 is where westchester is dense or where the Dense suburbs are... As for NJ the transit suburbs are inside the I-287 loop...

From the Census Bureau:
The 11th most densely populated place in the US is Great Neck Plaza. The population density in Nassau County is 4,704 people per square mile. The population density in Westchester is 2,204

Great Neck plaza is 90% apartments and businesses, its the part right near Great Neck Station.

And Great Neck station is in Nassau County.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... on_density

You can sort the list by clicking on the arrows next to the column headings. All sorts of interesting things like the places in Nassau county that are denser than San Francisco.

Adirondacker wrote:

Nexis4Jersey wrote:But compared to NJ and Westchester its just pure sprawl on LI , you have very few dense cores with the exception of Mineola. Your towns are mostly built around the car and most of Long Islanders have bad walkablity in there towns thus they use the car more then Westchester or Jersey. South of I-287 is where westchester is dense or where the Dense suburbs are... As for NJ the transit suburbs are inside the I-287 loop...

From the Census Bureau:
The 11th most densely populated place in the US is Great Neck Plaza. The population density in Nassau County is 4,704 people per square mile. The population density in Westchester is 2,204

South of I-287 and Along I-287 its about 10-15,000 per SQ mile , north of 287 its less....notice how many New Jersey towns are on that list vs the one LI town. LI is not that dense....its sprawl...

Tommy Meehan wrote:At one point I too thought the idea of a cross-county Rockland/Westchester CRT was absolutely ridiculous. However, when I began to really look into it -- the NYS Thruway Authority and NYDOT websites had some great stuff -- I slowly began to change my mind.

It's also not true that commuter rail lines ONLY exist from suburbs to the downtowns of major cities. California has two. One called ACE is in the Bay Area and connects suburbs with a huge office/industrial complex not located in a major city. The other is one of the southern California MetroLink routes that doesn't go to LA. It runs from the eastern suburbs to Orange County, primarily Anaheim and Irvine. Both lines have been fairly successful.

I think another decent example is ShoreLineEast. That connects suburbs with the city of New Haven. The population of New Haven is not too much greater I think then the 200,000 plus daytime population in White Plains.

And as the gent from Japan noted, suburb-to-suburb commuter rail lines are fairly common throughout Asia and Europe.

Plus the fact something has never been done before is not a good reason to reject it.

That was how i approached the project , but the more I read , the more I liked. I heard the Mayor Nyack and Suffern are demanded the state build Rail , I don't understand why the feds can't give us the 16 Billion $$. They seem to have the $$$ for so many other things , leaving Mass Transit in the Rail format and bus format in this region is dangerous....

I think certain people on this board need to start looking at how and where people commute to in this region and why they live out so far. People live out 50-70 miles because its cheaper and less stressful , but there are some people on this board who do not understand that and think those people should be punished. It boggles my mind....there should be more one seat rides in this region that would increase ridership and make it easier to expand / restore the Rail system....

Please don't assume that I am not up to date with my information, just because my opinion differs. We can argue all day about this, but in the end, we're still not going to have commuter rail across the new bridge or through Westchester County in our lifetimes. Unfortunately the mayors of Suffern and Nyack don't really have the pull needed to get billions of dollars for a project of this capacity. The truth is that the Feds want this project jump started but rail not be a part of it. Also, it looks like, now, the state of NY might look into spending more dollars on the 7 train subway extension to NJ, which will squeeze the available money even tighter. Even just the talk of this and Bloomberg and Christie's push for it may put a hold or cancellation on other projects until resolution. It is time to look into alternatives for this. BRT still seems like the way to go for the most bang for the buck.

Nexis4Jersey wrote:
That was how i approached the project , but the more I read , the more I liked. I heard the Mayor Nyack and Suffern are demanded the state build Rail , I don't understand why the feds can't give us the 16 Billion $$. They seem to have the $$$ for so many other things , leaving Mass Transit in the Rail format and bus format in this region is dangerous....

I think certain people on this board need to start looking at how and where people commute to in this region and why they live out so far. People live out 50-70 miles because its cheaper and less stressful , but there are some people on this board who do not understand that and think those people should be punished. It boggles my mind....there should be more one seat rides in this region that would increase ridership and make it easier to expand / restore the Rail system....

punishment is stalling on this bridge project over extras, while people in that region are stuck with a bridge that's ready to fall down at any moment. There's no guarantee this rail addition is going to bring in ridership, but adding 4 lanes in each direction over the 3 and 4th reversible one will help with the traffic over the bridge, and if its a crosstown line, its even more likely to be a flop.

People like their cars, and I don't see whats so bad with taking the Port Jervis or Pascack Valley line if you live in Rockland? So you have to take PATH at Hoboken, its not a big deal, PATH hits the major spots in midtown and downtown. People would have to get on the Subway anyway when they got to Penn Station. It seems much cheaper to just find a way to make those rail lines better than to devise some elaborate cross Hudson commuter rail line.

I don't agree with this idea that some people have that we should make motorists suffer to try to coax them into taking the train, especially in regions that aren't a major city. this is an important link in the interstate highway system and it should be treated as such, not as some mass transit experiment, in an area with plenty of rail lines as it is.