Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

According to the latest minutes of the Connecticut Commuter Rail Committee, (http://www.trainweb.org/ct/) the option for 11,000 VAC at 25 hz on the M8s has been eliminated to save weight on them. Thus creating a big problem. According to Gene Colonese (CDOT Rail Director) the M8 will use a special 3rd rail shoe that can use both over running and under running 3rd rail instead of using the 11,000 v overhaed wire to go to Penn Station. Sound OK until you realize that the 3rd rail into Penn Station begins at HAROLD interlocking, a distance of some 15 miles from CP 216.

Just how will an M8 train get from CP 216 to HAROLD if the cars can't handle the 11,000 VAC 25 hz wire?

I guess this means that the M8s will not being going into Penn Station anytime soon. Or only if Amtrak upgrades the wire from CP 216 to Penn to 13,000 VAC 60 hz, and we all know that isn't too liklely!!!

The cutover from 25 to 60hz is on the approach to the Hell Gate, right after Harold. Of course, this leaves about 1/2 a mile or a mile gap to fill in...

Practically - there are no slots in Penn anyway.

Are they chasing that much of a weight issue that they're now trying to get the main transformer weight down?

*Edit: I just thumbed through the August minutes. CDOT *really* thinks Amtrak's gonna go 60Hz? I know NJT isn't betting on it, and nothing I've heard about the recent failure says it's related to the age of the equipment (It was described to me as a testbook power flow issue that they're trying to find the origion of still)

If they were to split the New haven line at the state line of where trains would go either into penn station to Grand central terminal would their then be enough room in penn station?

capecodlocoguy wrote:According to the latest minutes of the Connecticut Commuter Rail Committee, (http://www.trainweb.org/ct/) the option for 11,000 VAC at 25 hz on the M8s has been eliminated to save weight on them. Thus creating a big problem. According to Gene Colonese (CDOT Rail Director) the M8 will use a special 3rd rail shoe that can use both over running and under running 3rd rail instead of using the 11,000 v overhaed wire to go to Penn Station. Sound OK until you realize that the 3rd rail into Penn Station begins at HAROLD interlocking, a distance of some 15 miles from CP 216.

Just how will an M8 train get from CP 216 to HAROLD if the cars can't handle the 11,000 VAC 25 hz wire?

I guess this means that the M8s will not being going into Penn Station anytime soon. Or only if Amtrak upgrades the wire from CP 216 to Penn to 13,000 VAC 60 hz, and we all know that isn't too liklely!!!

the exact change in voltage is just south of the Bronx River bridge, at exactly the point where the yard lead from the processed foods distribution plant connects to track 2. So the M8's have about 3 miles of incompatible track between Harold and the Bronx.

Amtrak converted the whole Harlem River branch to 60hz at the same time MNR completed converting the New Haven mainline, they had to because all the NHRR 25hz supplies were being closed. It is fed from a substation at the west of the old Van Nest shops and has 4 autotransformer stations (with overlapping catenary gaps) near King’s Highway south of CP216, south of the Pelham Draw, at Bungay St tower and at Bowery Jct where the Bay Ridge Line diverges south of Hell Gate bridge. The changeover from MNR supply is between Beechwood Ave and the Amtrak sub at King’s Highway and the change to 25hz is at Gate interlocking.

Consistent with Phil’s comment, I posted this over at Subchat: “Gate to Harold is 25hz only, no 3rd rail, but obviously that is not much of a difficulty to resolve. The rail used to stretch 0.6 miles to SS2 at Woodside Ave, Gate is only another 0.6 miles and somewhere near there would make a low risk place to make the change. The interesting item is having someone make a convertible shoe design and gamble money on making 4 x 300 copies of it without first being able to get a year or two of field experience.”.

It would also be very novel if we ended up with a 3 way changeover at Gate, 60hz to 25hz/DC. Actually you would have to complete the change to DC east of Gate so that there would be no risk of 25hz ever getting on the transformers of a westbound M8.

Bill

The Amtrak Timetable shows the point of the 60 hz to 25 hz change as being between catenary poles C-66 to C-70 which is GATE interlocking which is on the west end of the Hell Gate bridge as Bill West has stated.

I stand corrected. I assumed that the dead section just west of CP 216 was where the frequency chang was made.

I to think that instead of gambling on a complex 3rd rail shoe of all 300 some odd cars, serious consideration should be given to somehow maintaining the 25hz transformer, or have Amtrak upgrade the wire into Penn Station. Just how? I have no idea!!!

Probbably the best solution would be to change NYP over to 12.5kv 60hz. The arrows can change frequency on the fly, and you could do such a change back to 25hz after Newark, or something like that, to allow for potential (heh:) future MN service terminating at Newark, NJ, which would likely be much better than terminating at Penn anyway, since you'd have to turn the train at Penn - not easy or fun. (Newark, at least you have some space to play with)

Of course, there's nothing that then says you can't then run to Dover, MSU, or Gladstone, save for the lack of high level platforms everywhere. If these ever popped up, it'd open up a few interesting types of through services (though dual position third rail shoes would too - MN service to LIRR stations?)

Dual position shoes might have another possible advantage: MN could then go take the LIRR's ESA slots

I don't think a dual position third rail shoe's even worth the effort, and the weight of 25hz (argueably not too much but enough to make it unattractive) simply to allow for a 'maybe, in the future' service, seems silly, especially when at most, it'll be used for what, 5 miles of track?

Nasadowsk wrote: Of course, there's nothing that then says you can't then run to Dover, MSU, or Gladstone, save for the lack of high level platforms everywhere. If these ever popped up, it'd open up a few interesting types of through services (though dual position third rail shoes would too - MN service to LIRR stations?)

NJTransit Arrow IVs that are allegedly being speced out would also be able to open up such routes as any NJT electric routes to Stamford/New Haven or beyond, if the political hurdels can be surmounted, and they will already be low platform capable.

The Arrow IIIs can go to New Haven already...

Nasadowsk wrote:The Arrow IIIs can go to New Haven already...

True. But they can't go to any NJT route except NEC, i.e. the ones that can go to New Haven are restricted to the 11kV portion of the NJT network, so no Dover, MSU, Gladstone or Long Branch.

But the bigger problem of runinng through service through NYP is organizational and there appears to be no solution in site.

At least MNRR has mentioned the possibility of just running "to" NYP from New Haven which is a first. from them

Nasadowsk wrote:Probbably the best solution would be to change NYP over to 12.5kv 60hz. The arrows can change frequency on the fly, and you could do such a change back to 25hz after Newark, or something like that, to allow for potential (heh:) future MN service terminating at Newark, NJ, which would likely be much better than terminating at Penn anyway, since you'd have to turn the train at Penn - not easy or fun. (Newark, at least you have some space to play with)

Arrows cannot change frequency on the fly.

Which is why all NJTransit Midtown Direct and NJCL service south of Matawan is coaches only, no MUs.

Jishnu wrote:

Nasadowsk wrote:The Arrow IIIs can go to New Haven already...

True. But they can't go to any NJT route except NEC, i.e. the ones that can go to New Haven are restricted to the 11kV portion of the NJT network, so no Dover, MSU, Gladstone or Long Branch.

But the bigger problem of runinng through service through NYP is organizational and there appears to be no solution in site.

At least MNRR has mentioned the possibility of just running "to" NYP from New Haven which is a first. from them

Arrow IIIs are not restricted to the NEC. They run on the Hoboken Division on a daily basis! But only to Hoboken - the cannot be used for Midtown Direct because of the voltage/frequency switch that they cannot do on the fly.

As for your comment about "organizational" issues at NYP - I agree 110%. The present situation is a morass and adding MNRR service is just an absurd concept.

NEC_rider I believe you confuse voltage change can not be done on fly on the arrows as that can only be done in shop.
Frequency should not be a problem, normaly that can change on fly by just coasting tru a dead zone of about two car lenghts.

You are correct - I was confusing frequency (which can be switched on the fly) with voltage (which cannot).

So my criticism of Nasadowsk's post should have focused on his second paragraph:

Nasadowsk wrote:
Of course, there's nothing that then says you can't then run to Dover, MSU, or Gladstone, save for the lack of high level platforms everywhere. If these ever popped up, it'd open up a few interesting types of through services (though dual position third rail shoes would too - MN service to LIRR stations?)

The voltage change to 25kV at Swift would still prevent ArrowIIIs from running New Haven to Dover, MSU or Gladstone, regardless of how one reconfigured power through NYP.

Yes but I was referring to the M8s :/

Then again, the Arrow IVs will be able to go the entire NEC too..