M7 Issues

Penn Central wrote:

dc700 wrote:Was there any thought to putting the door mid car ?
It always seemed like a good idea to me

The doors on the M-series cars are called quarter doors because they divide the car in 21 foot quarters so no one has to walk more than 20 feet to the nearest exit. Center doors (without end doors) would increase the distance to the doors and could delay passenger departures.

Do you mean they divide a pair of cars in quarters. Because they do
not divide a single car in 1/4's

I'm seeing rumors floating around that later M7 orders will be modified to feature double-leaf doors. Is there any truth to this rumor? I doubt it.

just rumors since each door must be of a minimum size for ADA compliance, a door like the M2/M4/M6 is not ADA compliant.

dc700 wrote:Do you mean they divide a pair of cars in quarters. Because they do
not divide a single car in 1/4's

The doors disect the location of the seats in the car by quarters so no customer has to walk more than one quarter of a car length to a door. Even if you sit in the middle of the car, one of the two vestibules will only be 20 feet away and that is why they are called quarter doors. Hope that makes it clearer.

No decision has yet been made about what technology to use, much less the equipment used and the provider of the service.

Originally, the cars were to use CDPD cellular data technology. The cellular companies decided that this wasn't something they wanted to continue to provide, and it's no longer available to new accounts. MNR is studying various other technologies and will decide sometime this year how to proceed.

Meanwhile, data is dumped at terminals

Just got finished with an M-7 doors class. We had the added plus of having a guy who is involved in the communications end of things at the LIRR in the class. According to him, the LIRR does indeed use CDPD, through Verizon. That will be canned in favor of "better" technology. The dude was throwing out acronyms for systems. Something like "1XR something" or something like that? That system would supplant CDPD for certain info that the RR wants transmitted right away. WDMS (Wayside Data Management System) is where the train's logged info can only be accessed at certain wayside points.
He also mentioned a thing coming called "Virtual Cab", where the information available to the Engineer can also be transmitted and reconstructed in real [or near real] time for a person in a central office to be able to look at the same indications the Engineer is looking at. Ostensibly, this is for aiding in possible troubleshooting, not to "spy" on the crew.
Once again, I would imagine that these same things will be used on MetroNorth in the near future.

Tom

N340SG wrote:

No decision has yet been made about what technology to use, much less the equipment used and the provider of the service.

Originally, the cars were to use CDPD cellular data technology. The cellular companies decided that this wasn't something they wanted to continue to provide, and it's no longer available to new accounts. MNR is studying various other technologies and will decide sometime this year how to proceed.

Meanwhile, data is dumped at terminals

Just got finished with an M-7 doors class. We had the added plus of having a guy who is involved in the communications end of things at the LIRR in the class. According to him, the LIRR does indeed use CDPD, through Verizon. That will be canned in favor of "better" technology. The dude was throwing out acronyms for systems. Something like "1XR something" or something like that? That system would supplant CDPD for certain info that the RR wants transmitted right away. WDMS (Wayside Data Management System) is where the train's logged info can only be accessed at certain wayside points.
He also mentioned a thing coming called "Virtual Cab", where the information available to the Engineer can also be transmitted and reconstructed in real [or near real] time for a person in a central office to be able to look at the same indications the Engineer is looking at. Ostensibly, this is for aiding in possible troubleshooting, not to "spy" on the crew.
Once again, I would imagine that these same things will be used on MetroNorth in the near future.

Tom

The guy probably means 1xrtt. That supports data speeds of up to 144kbits, averaging about 80kbits on verizons network. Thats what "National Access" is.

As far as the doors taking "too long" to close: That point where the door is just about closed, but stops for 4 to 5 seconds, is for "Secondary Obstruction Sensing", aka scarf or something caught in door. The book says 2 seconds...forget it...it's generally four or five seconds.
There are 2 things that they told us crews (on both railroads) have been doing. One is holding the close button in for a long time, in the mistaken belief that it somehow helps the doors close completely. Holding the button in for too long sets it's own fault, however, being a "stuck button" fault.
The other thing is crews just tap and release the close buttons, whereby some doors may close, and other doors don't. That's because each door computer has to pick up and execute the close command. It's not like the M1 / M3 with strictly relay logic.
What is being recommended is to hold the close button for a second or two, then release it. Most crews on both RRs have probably figured this out by now. You will likely see these situations gradually go away.

If the door gets interrupted or loses it's "place" of where it was (encoder count), it may move very slowly as it closes, seeking it's "home" position. Let it do it. Pulling on it will only set you back more time.

One last thing. The "can opener" or "Grand Union Door" noise is definitely from the screw drive. The motor is pretty quiet, except for a small high- pitched squeal during the "seek home" operation. (That sounds like a cordless drill when you only push the trigger a little bit.)

Tom

IslesFan,

Yeah, that sounds like it. Thanks.
He knew what he was talking about. It was me who forgot the acronym.

Tom

DutchRailnut wrote:just rumors since each door must be of a minimum size for ADA compliance, a door like the M2/M4/M6 is not ADA compliant.

Are you sure that the ADA regulation refers to the size of the door and not the size of the door opening?

Newer Bombardier coaches have double-leaf doors, and the opening is ADA compliant. I think the R142 Subway car doors (and the end doors) are also ADA Compliant (and have double leaf doors).


I think the M7 door technology (worm drive) is better and the single leaf will cut maintenance costs. But the door seems to take longer to close since the door speed is (at best) comparable to what you would find on other M equipment but the door has to travel at least twice as far to close (probably a little further since the opening is wider).

Nester

Nester if you doubt it please feel free to find the ruling.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/wais ... v4_03.html

Nothing about mandating a single leaf door in 49CFR238.235 (Tier I, doors), other than doors must be at least a certain width and height. Single vs double leaf is NOT mentioned.

So, there's no law against double doors, provided they're wide enough. As a mater of fact, to meet ADA on the new IRT subway cars, the end doors HAD to be double types.

Single Vs double - theoretically, a single's more reliable, but it also is a tad slower. It does seal better and tends to discourage holding/squeezing in, and theoretically should not be as easy to knock in/out, more stable, etc.

Screw drive with an encoder and it has to gop slopw if it thinks it's lost the encoder position? Someone needs to rethink their SW...

It'd be nice if the thing could historically trend current while opening/closing to see if it's gumming up with age, too...