Locks and keys

I would assume they do but do engine/locomotive doors have locks on them? Secodly, to start an engine is a key needed or is it just a button to start it? I am speaking of diesel engines, not steam.

Some railroads put locks on the cab doors of the locomotives; others do not. Depends on the individual railroad.

No key is required in order to start the locomotive.

Does it strike anyone as being a little odd that there's no mechanical "key" to start a locomotive. Especially today with all the Homeland Security stuff, you would think they wold at least take up all the "reversers" on the engines and issue all certified engineers their own reverser. (I have a mental picture of trainees graduating from CSX locomotive school and on graduating being presented with their own personal, name imprinted, plastic reverser.)

Most of the time there IS a deterrent. It's called a DERAIL,


Gadfly

Even if the engine is already running -- which they often are -- that doesn't mean a vandal would know how to get the locomotive or train moving.

Many railroads lock the doors to their locomotives ... it's a lot less to prevent theft, and a lot more to prevent vandalism.

Turning on a locomotive is much more complicated than turning the key on a car ... starting up a large diesel powerplant (even with autostart) is not a trivial task; if you don't know what you are doing, your chances of success are not great.

That being said, there WAS an incident a few months back where a couple of friends chanced across a lonely CSX locomotive down in florida (a GP-38, I think it was), broke into the cab, and did indeed figure out how to start it up, and then drove it down the track to a local bar that happened to be trackside.

The theft was discovered when the CSX crew showed up for a job, and the locomotive was no longer where it had been left.

The culprit was apprehended off fingerprints the police gathered at the scene of the crime (e.g. - in the locomotive).

Reverser handles are supposed to be removed from the control stand, but I don't believe there's anything that states they have to be removed from the locomotive itself. Most locomotives, in fact, have a little bracket on the side of the control stand for storage when it's not in use.

- litz

I believe there was an incident in Greenville NC several years ago where a train crew "befriended" one of the local children, let him ride the locomotive, sit with the engineer and such. One weekend, they left the engine in the house track and the kid came over, started it up and ran it over the derail. Local railroad authorities hushed it up when they discovered what happened.

My initial reaction upon reading this thread was, "WHY does he want to know this"?

Gadfly

Gadfly wrote:My initial reaction upon reading this thread was, "WHY does he want to know this"?

Gadfly

Don't worry, I'm not a nut. I was just wondering because I have never seen anything that looked like a lock on a engine door or heard of keys. I just thought that in this time, there should be more security, and that with engines being able to pull a whole train, with many different forms of cargo, would be a prime thing to try to make more proctected.

Older locomototives had cab locks standard. Usually coach keys. Later on cab keys. But cab locks went away more then anything for cost followed by inconvienience. And with anything that requires even the slightest bit of effort, people simply dont do it. I come across cab doors and windows that are OPEN, let alone unlocked. All the time. Most modern loco's nowadays have interior locks so a crew can lock themselves in for safety purposes. But exterior locks were not very popular again untill recently. NS now puts a set of tabs on the front cab door so that it can be locked with an NS switch lock (which is secured to the nose via a chain and the locks sits in a little box). To secure an unattended loco one needs to lock the rear cab door from the inside, then exit via the front door and then secure it with the padlock. 98% of the NS units have this setup. And because all NS T&E crews have a switch key already, there is no added cost of buying a special lock or key and issuing them. UP has been doing something similar for years but instead of a padlock hole, they have a special high security lock/bolt that it permanently attached to the nose. It too can be locked frm outside the cab the same way NS units are. And now, CSX has been doing the same thing. All our new units from the past few years have this locking bolt setup. Most BNSF units i come across have a large locking hasp on the nose, but usually no padlock. The P&W has locks on all their cabs. Amtrak has locks fitted with the Amtrak coach key.

But like with any locking system, it's worthless unless you take the time to lock it. But it's nice to know it's there.

As for locomotives needing keys to operate them, as others have said, no. Starting a loco and making it ready to operate requires only the know how (Which i will not share here for security purposes). It's definately not something you can just "figure out" on your own. To operate a locomotive, you need a reverser. Sadly, these are hardly difficult to come by. They are all over ebay and laying around railroad yard offices. You would never be able to take them all back and start issuing them to employees. The only solution would be to change the design and in turn, replace every reverser assembly on every locomotive in the US. In other words, it's not going to happen. What you will see happen in the very near future is an electronic access system to allow the locomotive to operate. Amtrak already has the system installed on the HHP/HST fleet. They use a card scanner and PIN combo. The time will come sooner then you think where the FRA makes this a requirement for all loco's. A pin pad, card scanner, fingerprint reader, etc will come about soon.

As with most any secuirty issue, untill something bad happens, nothing will change. As soon as someone steals a locomotive and/or train and creates a disaster with loss of life, you will still see careless employees leaving doors and windows open and and unlcoked cabs. Sad but true.

I'm surprised that rail security hasn't gotten tighter. Really, I don't think that issuing a new reverser or requiring a lock system on locomotives hasn't already been mandated. Locomotives go in for inspection every 90 days. Changing a reverser assembly or adding a lock mechanism to the control stand should not be so troublesome. Easier than adding a electronic keypad, although that's definitely not out of the question. Railroads have, in my opinion, traditionally resisted change until it was forced on them. And yet, we're doing things now that just a few years ago would have been called impossible. And we've only touched the tip of our potential.

10more years wrote:I'm surprised that rail security hasn't gotten tighter. Really, I don't think that issuing a new reverser or requiring a lock system on locomotives hasn't already been mandated.

It has not been mandated. There are no rules regarding either at this time.

10more years wrote:Locomotives go in for inspection every 90 days. Changing a reverser assembly or adding a lock mechanism to the control stand should not be so troublesome. Easier than adding a electronic keypad, although that's definitely not out of the question.

FYI, it's 92 days. That aside, It's not really about having the time to make modifications. Especially now considering every calss 1 out there is storing power. The issue is COST. That is and always will be the biggest factor in any changes railroads make. EVERYTHING is about cost. How to lower costs and increase profits. First off, there is no fully tested and proven system, nor is there any FRA criteria for what they want. Those two issues alone will keep it from happening now. No railroad is going to spend the money to install an untested system especially when nobody knows what the FRA will ultimatley require. And then you have the HUGE logistical issue of run through power. Whatever system is ultimatley chosen has to be standard across the board. Having unique systems or systems that require special keys will never work since railroads use each others power all the time. Look at how long EPIC braking and PTS is taken. It's all for the same reasons i am mentioning. Interoperability and what the specific requirements will be. Untill that is ironed out, nothing will happen.

10more years wrote:Railroads have, in my opinion, traditionally resisted change until it was forced on them. And yet, we're doing things now that just a few years ago would have been called impossible. And we've only touched the tip of our potential.

Almost every industry out there resists change when change costs money. That's just the way things are.

NV290 wrote:As with most any secuirty issue, untill something bad happens, nothing will change. As soon as someone steals a locomotive and/or train and creates a disaster with loss of life, you will still see careless employees leaving doors and windows open and and unlcoked cabs. Sad but true.

There have been a few fairly well publicized incidents of locomotive theft ... I can think of two here in the US and one in Europe right off the bat, and I'm sure a google search would turn up more.

The key thing is, a stored locomotive, if in a siding, MUST be behind a locked derail (and the switch must be lined and locked to the main, too). Thus, if you get it moving (and that's a big IF), you can't go far.

And only in very, very rare circumstances is a locomotive going to be parked on a main instead of a siding or yard lead.

As noted above, starting a locomotive is not like turning the key in your car ... there is a very precise sequence of steps and events that must be followed, or it either will not start, or will not move once started.

In two of the three cases above (one here, one in the UK) the thief knew enough about locomotives to know how to start it up and move it ... in the third case (again, here), it was apparently dumb blind luck that the thief managed to get the locomotive moving.

- litz

litz wrote:Many railroads lock the doors to their locomotives ... it's a lot less to prevent theft, and a lot more to prevent vandalism.

Turning on a locomotive is much more complicated than turning the key on a car ... starting up a large diesel powerplant (even with autostart) is not a trivial task; if you don't know what you are doing, your chances of success are not great.

That being said, there WAS an incident a few months back where a couple of friends chanced across a lonely CSX locomotive down in florida (a GP-38, I think it was), broke into the cab, and did indeed figure out how to start it up, and then drove it down the track to a local bar that happened to be trackside.

The theft was discovered when the CSX crew showed up for a job, and the locomotive was no longer where it had been left.

The culprit was apprehended off fingerprints the police gathered at the scene of the crime (e.g. - in the locomotive).

Reverser handles are supposed to be removed from the control stand, but I don't believe there's anything that states they have to be removed from the locomotive itself. Most locomotives, in fact, have a little bracket on the side of the control stand for storage when it's not in use.

- litz

Here is a news clip of the Kendall incident:

http://news.gaurc.us/?p=1275

While in Las Vegas a few years ago we showed up at the yard (Arden, on the west side) and found the motor had it's horn and bell removed and the radio was missing.

10more years wrote:I'm surprised that rail security hasn't gotten tighter. Really, I don't think that issuing a new reverser or requiring a lock system on locomotives hasn't already been mandated.

It has not been mandated. There are no rules regarding either at this time

The UPRR was trying this method out a earlier this year. While I work for Amtrak, I do look at the Superintendent's bulletins for the UP and noted that the engineers now had to carry their own reverser. A few weeks later while traveling east after having just left the Elko, NV Amtrak depot and transiting the Elko UPRR yard, a crew called us up and asked if we happened to have an "extra" reverser we could pass off to them. Sorry Pal. He had to call up the carman to get a new one.