Little Joes

I would not expect the 803 to run at IRM even if the catenary is ever upgraded to be pan-compatible. While the locomotive is technically operational, it is still designed to run on 1500 v and is less compatible with the museum's 600 v line than are the MU cars. Although I don't know the specifics, I have heard various accounts of the limitations of running the 803 on 600 v. One example, if I remember correctly, is that only one compressor can be operated (at half speed), which more or less precludes operating the locomotive with a train.

ahh, thats too bad. I'd have loved to see one operate since they retired the Little Joes about 3 years before I was born. Too bad Nictd didn't save anything to operate. I wish we had a "Heritage Fleet" with a couple old cars, a joe and the line car. I'm guessing since it's a gov funded railroad they wouldn't have even thought about that.

I used to watch the 800's, and also the 700's do their switching jobs across the street from my house back in the 70's. I even managed to get a ride on them now and then while they were doing their work. I never knew the names of the engineers that gave me the rides, but I wonder if they realize that they gave me life long memories?

MikeF wrote:I would not expect the 803 to run at IRM even if the catenary is ever upgraded to be pan-compatible. While the locomotive is technically operational, it is still designed to run on 1500 v and is less compatible with the museum's 600 v line than are the MU cars. Although I don't know the specifics, I have heard various accounts of the limitations of running the 803 on 600 v. One example, if I remember correctly, is that only one compressor can be operated (at half speed), which more or less precludes operating the locomotive with a train.

Hey Mike, has anyone at IRM ever brought up the possibility of having two transformers on the property, to split the voltage they get from ComEd on some days? Probably wouldn't be a real cheap thing to do, but if, for a couple weekends every summer, it was possible to run the main line catenary at 1500 volts and the trolley loop at its usual 600 volts, that would mean that any South Shore equipment would be able to operate, plus the Illinois Central MUs and, maybe in the next few years, a set of Metra Highliners. I would imagine that this would also involve installing switches to "deaden" some of the catenary between the loop and the main line (for obvious reasons). I guess it's kind of a far-fetched proposal but it would be cool to see the Little Joe pulling the caboose train and the IC and South Shore heavyweight equipment substituting for the usual Pullman train.

Yes, the idea has been brought up before. As you predicted, it would be extremely expensive to install the electrical equipment and make the necessary modifications to the wire. The benefits just aren't worth it.

Didn't IRM rewire the IC-MU's to run on 600? Also, the joes were already rewired from 3000v to 1500v by CSS in 1948, it might be even tougher to rewire it down further. Too bad nobody saved any CUT/GCT electrics, those were all 600v at some point in their lives.

Tadman wrote:Didn't IRM rewire the IC-MU's to run on 600?

No. That would require major modifications to the motor control system and replacement of the traction motors. A solid-state device was designed and installed in place of the 1500 v motor-generator, however, that charges the batteries. This is necessary because the control system and lights run on low-voltage battery power. The compressors were replaced with 600 v models. So, with the batteries charged and the compressor running at full power, the cars can be run on 600 v (they run at half speed).

The situation is a little different with the South Shore MU's at IRM. In the case of car 34, a 600 v compressor has been installed and has been grounded through the batteries in an arrangement also used on several of IRM's North Shore cars and CTA 4000's. This charges the batteries on 600 v but precludes operating the car in MU with any cars not so equipped. Car 40 has a 600 v compressor but still has its 1500 v motor-generator, so its batteries must be charged by means of a battery charger located in Barn 6. This is the reason the car's test run in November had to be cut short -- the batteries ran down and there was not enough charge to power the control system. We are currently looking at possible solutions to this, including either installing a 600 v motor-generator or a solid-state device like the one on the IC cars.

Also, the joes were already rewired from 3000v to 1500v by CSS in 1948, it might be even tougher to rewire it down further.

It wouldn't be any more difficult to make the conversion from 1500 v to 600 v than from 3000 v to 1500 v, but it would require a great deal of money, which is not available. It also raises the issue of authenticity. Unlike some other "trolley museums," IRM's primary goal is to preserve equipment, not to operate a tourist railroad. This means keeping equipment in its original configuration whenever possible.

I'm not completely sure why MILW Little Joes were blanked out on one end -- cost-saving, I would guess, sure didn't enhance flexibility -- but when Joes and diesels ran together, it was always the Joe that led. I never saw or heard of one running as a "B" unit, though two often operated "back-to-back" with blanked cabs facing inwards.

The only best possibility would be to have a 1500 volt generator to use during the times to run 1500 volt equipment than to keep converting the equipment.

But you certainly dont want somebody accidentally raising the pole on a 600 v car on 1500vdc.

Pantagraph compatible has been done in model form, surely you can do it on the prototype.

If the museum was serious enough to run 1500v equipment, do you think simply raising the standard operating voltage would work? But maybe that would make 600V equipment run faster, unless you installed resisters in series on them.

not to 1500vdc, but to 800-900 vdc?

I still don't think you would do that.

I would think if its just compressors you would just mount 600 v version on the loco and disable the originals,
I figger the loco could move on half voltage anyways.
You wont get full speed.

If your going to preserve the locomotive, you may as well preserve it in full operating condition as it was built and don't alter it, then install somehow a 1500 vdc system on its own trackage for it to run on and other 1500vdc cars.
IRM has their 600vdc system and their pretty much designed to work with that.
If your going to have 1500 vdc equiopment with pantographs,
make your mailine compatible for pantagraphs and to its storage areas and separate the wire voltage 600vdc/1500 in various area where the 600vdc equipment is.
SO if you decide to run 1500 equipment, you power up the line for it, but leave the rest of the line 600vdc, doesnt IRM have a running loop trolley?

There may be some innovation thinkong to make all this work, but there are some suggestions.
overnout

cheers.

dinwitty wrote:The only best possibility would be to have a 1500 volt generator to use during the times to run 1500 volt equipment than to keep converting the equipment. ... But you certainly dont want somebody accidentally raising the pole on a 600 v car on 1500vdc. ... If the museum was serious enough to run 1500v equipment, do you think simply raising the standard operating voltage would work? But maybe that would make 600V equipment run faster, unless you installed resisters in series on them.

IRM does not have its own generator; it receives power from ComEd and has a substation on the grounds. I'm not an expert on substations but I wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to get it to put out 1500 v instead of 600 v. But it's not a good idea, for several reasons:

- Although IRM does have wire section breakers, the line switches are not remote controlled, so isolating the section of line where 1500 v would be used would be a labor-intensive task at the least.

- With only one substation and with IRM's DC line distribution system, it is only possible to produce one voltage at a time and that voltage is sent to all the feeders. (Each feeder location is equipped with a line switch so sections may be shut off.) Therefore, it would not be possible to, say, run 1500 v cars on the main line and 600 v cars on the streetcar loop.

- There is potential for disastrous damage if a 600 v car were connected to a 1500 v line -- especially if someone tried to move the car on that voltage. To answer your question, no, the car would not just run faster. Breakers and fuses would blow, irreparable motor damage could occur, and wiring and insulation could be dangerously compromised. (Much of the wiring in 600 v cars is only rated for 1000 v.)

Pantagraph compatible has been done in model form, surely you can do it on the prototype.

The actual wire construction is the easiest part. Without many operating pan-equipped cars, making the wire compatible with them is not a high priority, but the DC Line Department is working on it as time allows. In some places, skates have already been installed at wire frogs and the wire is taut enough and centered enough on most of the main line to allow pan operation.

I would think if its just compressors you would just mount 600 v version on the loco and disable the originals, I figger the loco could move on half voltage anyways.

It's not just the compressors. A few of the South Shore cars at IRM have 600 v compressors and they work fine, but that doesn't solve other problems such as battery charging. I'm not sure whether 600 v versions of the compressors used on the 800's are available anyway.

If your going to preserve the locomotive, you may as well preserve it in full operating condition as it was built and don't alter it, then install somehow a 1500 vdc system on its own trackage for it to run on and other 1500vdc cars.

I agree with the part about preserving it as it was on the railroad. But I don't think it's practical to install a 1500 v system. (Nor would IRM probably ever be able to afford such an installation.) Frankly, I think it's enough to know that the 803 is operable and can be run -- albeit inconveniently -- on occasion, but let it be a display piece most of the time. Same goes for the M.U. cars, although it's easier to make them run on the lower voltage. If I can do anything about it, you may see one of them (40) running occasionally in the not-so-distant future. But I don't think you'll ever see a 1500 v line at IRM or any other museum around here. Be glad that the old stuff will run at all on 600 v -- the current NICTD equipment will only be a static display without the higher voltage.

Come to think of it, the only really theoretically possible way of making the Little Joe fully operable would be with a portable step-up transformer - maybe a really short custom-made car placed right behing the locomotive, with trolley poles on top feeding the generator inside, the output which would be jumpered to the locomotive. It would be a pain to run with the South Shore and IC MU cars though, seeing as how it would block out the cab on one end. But heck, if something like that would work without draining the museum's power grid, with enough money, a similar car could be built with a rectifier inside with the transformer, and the GG1 could operate.

Transformers work with AC, not DC. In order to use a step-up transformer, you'd have to have a large motor-alternator (remember the rotary converters in old substations?) or a solid-state inverter to change the DC from the line into AC. Then you could run the AC through the transformer to raise the voltage and rectify it back to DC. Or you could just build a really big motor-generator to put out 1500 v DC. Hmm, I don't think either one would be especially portable or affordable.

It's a real shame they never went forward with the "dunes trolley" or whatever NICTD and the park service had planned. It sounds like Jerry Hannas was very anti to the idea when he arrived. But, instead of doing the usual railfan gripe about the way things are run by new management, I'd have to say the Shore looks about as good as it has in 50 years - mostly new or rebuilt cars, clean new stations, and impeccable right of way. Ever since C&O decided passenger wasn't important to CSS, the railroad has looked shabby, with newer owners trying to dig out of C&O's hole they created. But once more, I'll compliment C&O because they have stockholders to answer to, and they could have done much worse.

...install a diesel engine...

..runs away real fast...

that was just a flying thought maybe a diesel loco could MU power to it
So what if you have to install a pole or 2, (leaving the pantagraphs intact)
Some other electrics were dual pickup too.

Thanks for the good answers, there's always possible solutions if the desire to get it going works out.
There are such things as voltage doublers in electronics, dunno if thats ever practical in the high voltage regions..

There are always solutions, and they always require money. The South Shore collection at IRM has a miniscule budget, and the car in the best condition out there, 40, has no budget whatsoever because it is not technically owned by IRM. Therefore, all expenses for that car's restoration are paid out-of-pocket by those of us who work on it. That makes any large-scale work very difficult, especially these days when it costs an arm and a leg just to drive to the museum. I hate to be such a downer on this topic, but it's the reality I face. I'm not sure what the budget situation is with the 803. It is cared for by the Diesel Department.

I certainly agree with Tadman, though -- the South Shore is looking better now than it has in a long time!