Limited vs. Express

I had an interesting text message debate this morning with Scotty. He and I were on two different R3 express trains. I was on 4007 and he was on 315. He mentioned that he was on an R3 Express, but I know I didn't see him on 4007.

To me, R3 Express is automatically associated with trains which make their last stop at Bethayres before expressing to Center City. Recently, SEPTA has added trains with shorter express zones. My response to Scotty was, "What term do we give trains such as 315 with short express zones to differentiate them from those with longer express zones?" His answer was "Limited," to which I countered "But Limited has been associated with the named trains which have longer express zones on the RDG side."

I did some thinking about named trains as well. There are the Pennypack and Neshaminy Limiteds on the R3 WT, the North Penn Limited on the R5 Doylestown, and the Schuylkill Flyer on the R6; all of these have longer express zones when placed side by side with other trains during the rush.

So, I am opening the debate about Express vs. Limited. What is the difference, and which would apply to the long expresses and short expresses? Also, for the unnamed long expresses, what would be a suitable names for them?

Here's my thinking. Locals hit all stops, obviously. Express trains skip blocks of local stops. I thought Septa considered the longer-stretch express trains to be limiteds. Then you'd have super-expresses, like the Flower Show special train from Trenton.

But to me, the name limited means making selected stops. Like 5212 in the morning. Local through Marcus Hook, then Ridley Park and Norwood, skipping stops in between. 9251 run non-stop to Prospect Park, skipping Crum Lynne and Eddystone, hitting Chester, skipping Highland Ave., then stopping at Marcus Hook out to Newark.

I believe that on the LIRR, "Flyers" skip Jamaica.

Again, there isn't any rhyme or reason why some branches have named expresses, and others don't.

In MY opinion..

Express trains makes every stop on a particular branch line, and then express down the main to their terminals
Limited trains make selected stops on a particular branch line, and then express to the main terminals.
Locals make all stops to their terminal.

A friend gave me his New York subway explanation
locals stop at every station
expresses stop between every station

I also remember ages ago, during or just after Conrail times, some crews considered express to mean eject the passengers and run deadhead out of service.

Getting back to the concept of locals stopping at every station, we do have some stops that get limited service: Eddystone, Angora, 49th St, 22nd St, etc... as opposed to a train that makes limited stops. So trains that stop there, and which presumably stop at all the normal local stations as well, are super, or maybe subpar, locals.

Most of the time trains start out local, then become express as they get closer to town, example Paoli local to Bryn Mawr then express to center city, with local trains Bryn Mawr to Philly. The R3's the only route I know of that mixes it up, express to Secane-local to Media, and backwards service local to Secane express to Media.

Ok, just for clarification, a local is a train that makes all stops. I'm sure all parties agree on that. The real debate is the difference between express and limited. Did you ever notice that SEPTA has EXPRESS and LIMITED signs for their trains?

I've noticed four different patterns regarding express zones on the R5 Thorndale, three on the R3 WT, and two on various other lines. Which are considered "Limited," which are considered "Express," and why?

I agree with cpontani that express trains skip a block of stops, while limiteds skip stops here and there along the way.

If you look at the Route 100 schedule, however, they seem to follow the convention that "limited" means skipping a longer block of stops than "express." For example, the Norristown Limited makes only Ardmore Junction and Radnor up to Gulph Mills.

Also, their expresses seems to only skip the first two or three stops. It seems weird to me to call a train that skips only two consecutive stops an "express", but who knows...

SEPTA's use of the term is as described above: 'limited' referring to the trains skipping a larger number of stops than 'express.' Since the original use on the Paoli, they've gotten a little inconsistent, for alliteration reasons (somebody thinks "North Penn Limited" sounds good, but the trains carry 'express' signs. And yes, stopping patterns of some of these trains have been altered in order to balance out loads and/or free up cars for other trains. See the DVARP newsletter article from last September or so.

My own view is that 'limited' is defined as a train making only the major stops en route from endpoint to endpoint, like the Doylestown trains that stop at Fort Washington and Ambler. But that's an argument nobody's gonna win.

Back in the 1980s, when what was then the only R3 West Trenton "express" skipped Forest Hills and Trevose, I would occasionally hear a conductor on the afternoon run announce this train as, "Express to Bethayres, Limited [from there] to West Trenton." (Words in brackets part of some but not all such announcements.) The skipping of those two stops apparently made it a "limited".

"Limited" was a new concept to me, but "express" wasn't. I moved to the Philadelphia area from the DC area in 1986. Metrorail does not have the design to run expresses, limiteds, skip-stops, whatever you want to call it. In the pre-Metrorail bus days, I rode "express" busses between Montgomery County, MD, and Washington. Some of these busses had one load point (a Park-and-Ride lot) and made no stops between that lot and the fringes of downtown Washington. Other express busses picked up AM passengers and discharged PM passengers the whole part of their Maryland trips and then went "express" (rush hour traffic permitting) until the fringes of downtown DC. No boarding was permitted in the AM rush and no alighting (a word I know only from DC Transit/Metrobus timetables) was permitted in the PM rush in that downtown zone. There were local busses that served that part of the city. On some but not all of the trips that served multiple Maryland stops, passengers could ride them locally in the suburbs. I think that depended on whether or not another bus route served the same area.

Sometimes when I ventured (by car) into Virginia and southern Prince George's County, MD, which were served by other bus companies before Metrobus was formed by merging four companies, or noticed busses from those other companies heading there from downtown DC, I would see busses that were marked "limited". This may have meant the same as "express" but was the preferred term by AB&W, WV&M (a "sister" company of DC Transit in the years leading up to the merger), and/or WMA. A lot of the Virginia busses used the bus lanes on Shirley Highway (and probably still do, although they probably terminate now at close-in Metro stations such as Rosslyn). These were probably what I'd consider to be "expresses", but if they only made a few of the same stops local busses made once they got to the area they served, then they'd be "limiteds", the way I understand the meaning of that word.

Historically, Limited trains made fewer stops than express trains. Locals made all stops, expresses skipped some stops, and limiteds skipped even more stops than expresses. Over the years, the distinction between expresses and limiteds has become blurred, but the above was the historic delineation.

To me, its always been kind of dependent on the type of transit. Intercity rail (passenger) defines it differently than commuter rail, which is different than city transit. Those are pretty much the 3 types of transit, whether its bus, light rail, or train, the service patterns are very close.

Intercity:
Express: Skips very local stations
Limited: Skips all but large stations.

Commuter:
Express - Skips inner stops, but then hits most stops beyond a certain point.
Limited - Hits key inner stations, then at some point further out begins making every stop.

Transit:
Express - Generally skips alternating stops along the way, hitting key transfer points and employment centers.
Limited - For example stadium limiteds, or some airport lines, hits fewer key stations from one end of the line to the the busiest portion, then skips all the way to the end point.

R3 Passenger wrote:Did you ever notice that SEPTA has EXPRESS and LIMITED signs for their trains?

I'm sure it's the first sign they find they shove in the slots...

R8Guy wrote: Also, their expresses seems to only skip the first two or three stops. It seems weird to me to call a train that skips only two consecutive stops an "express", but who knows...

The Broad St subway expresses of my teens, the 1970's, skipped Fairmount 1 stop, Columbia and Dauphin-Susquehanna 2 stops, then Allegheny 1 stop, otherwise making every station. I thought that was weird too, but my impression is that it had been the standard practice for decades.

rslitman wrote: I would occasionally hear a conductor on the afternoon run announce this train as, "Express to Bethayres, Limited [from there] to West Trenton." (Words in brackets part of some but not all such announcements.) The skipping of those two stops apparently made it a "limited".
...
Metrorail does not have the design to run expresses

so Mr. Conductor Person's announcement would have been a bit clearer if he said "no stops to Bethayres, some stops from there to West Trenton"

I'm assuming you mean Metrorail does not have 3 or 4 track lines to efficiently run expresses that pass locals. But there are many 2 track lines that run expresses, the P&W for example. And even with only 2 tracks it can be reasonably efficient. For example express to Norristown leaving 69th St a few minutes in advance of a Bryn Mawr local would then arrive at Bryn Mawr a few minutes after the prior terminating Bryn Mawr local, or at least a few minutes faster than it would have if it had run local.

And in the community newspaper collumn, we have the Mt Airy Express and the Chestnut Hill Local.

The Broad St subway expresses of my teens, the 1970's, skipped Fairmount 1 stop, Columbia and Dauphin-Susquehanna 2 stops, then Allegheny 1 stop, otherwise making every station. I thought that was weird too, but my impression is that it had been the standard practice for decades.

Tracks 2 and 3 wasn't installed until 1992 prior to (and was budgeted into )the RailWorks project. Then, the Broad-Ridge Spur ran up 1 and 4 to Erie then used the upper level to turn. I forget when the siding at Olney was replaced/installed to allow Spurs to run all the way to Olney.

when you say Tracks 2 and 3 not installed until 1992 you must mean the inner 2 express tracks from Erie to Olney. There were 4 tracks Walnut-Locust to Erie for as long as I can remember, and that's since the late 1960's, I assume they were there decades before that.

gardendance wrote:when you say Tracks 2 and 3 not installed until 1992 you must mean the inner 2 express tracks from Erie to Olney.

Correct.