Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

philipmartin wrote:Passenger service on these lines was discontinued because of dwindling ridership. This isn't the early 20th Century.

The ICC sure made it hard for freight operations to pull in a decent profit for 40 years....... So much so that passenger operations became an unjustifiable financial burden. If staggers act had come in 1947 along with post-war railroad rebuilding money twinned with the national highway system, i suspect the rail landscape in US and canada would look a lot different. Probably more like it does in europe, just with longer distances.

25Hz wrote: The ICC sure made it hard for freight operations to pull in a decent profit for 40 years....... So much so that passenger operations became an unjustifiable financial burden. If staggers act had come in 1947 along with post-war railroad rebuilding money twinned with the national highway system, i suspect the rail landscape in US and canada would look a lot different. Probably more like it does in europe, just with longer distances.

Don't forget high taxes playing a part in killing private enterprise railroading. Years ago the Illinois Central wanted to abandon a line, and a local municipality opposed it, citing the loss of tax revenue it would suffer.

Somewhere deep in this 'epic' are my thoughts that Conrail deemed the DL&W to be redundant to their freight operations and essentially (exceptions of course) was either sold to public agencies for the operation of passenger trains or was abandoned in its entirety. If the 'search within topic' were to be enabled, as it was once upon a time around here, I could locate those postings.

But somehow with hindsight, some railroad managers must hold 'why did they ever abandon that?'. I can think of on CSX I'm sure many a manager has wondered why the SAL had to be truncated to such extent that it no longer can be considered a through routing for any class of traffic. Conrail had conveyed four E-W routes (NYC, NYC-MC, PRR, ERIE) to them on C-day; they proceeded to abandon three of them (MC maintained solely for passenger trains and eventually sold to public agencies). I'll place my wager given today's traffic levels (and with more to come) many a CSX and NS manager has wondered 'WHY'? Wisely, the NS chose to keep the NKP.

Had the DL&W Hoboken-Binghamton been kept by Conrail, it in all likelihood would have gone to the NS under the 'breakup', but that history is not about to be reversed. While it is fun to speculate, there is 1) no passenger agency with a mandate (and funding) to reopen such as a passenger route, and the one agency, NJT, that has an intrastate mandate is only going to reopen the route to the extent that there is passenger traffic to benefit NJ voters - and as I have said at this topic admittedly 'ad nauseam', handling Pennsylvania residents/passengers/voters does not provide any benefit to NJ.

Had the DL&W Hoboken-Binghamton been kept by Conrail…

Really begs the question as to why the federal fiat with respect to all these private industries.

All these private industries were bankrupt. None had the wherewithal to continue in business. Hence, Conrail. In retrospect, some of its decisions were unfortunate, but it did allow Eastern railroading to continue and prosper. And, while the Cutoff is a wonderful piece of railroad, it does not look, even in retrospect, that Conrail was wrong in deciding it did not need the DL&W. Its Eastern connection would still be the slow and congested M&E, since the original Boonton Line was no more in 1976. For that matter, it appears that only railfans and Pocono real estate agents are clamoring for rail passenger restoration via the Cutoff. Warren County seems to have a NIMBY problem and PA hasn't to my knowledge offered any money.

JoeG wrote:And, while the Cutoff is a wonderful piece of railroad, it does not look, even in retrospect, that Conrail was wrong in deciding it did not need the DL&W.

Mr. G, you have set forth this and other interesting thoughts immediately.

While no road is interested in routing any traffic to New York other than what they must for local delivery, Port Elizabeth is a facility that will generate high value (and low tonnage) traffic - and even if I personally have reservations as to its scope, post-PANAMAX will generate more traffic to the Eastern ports (ref: my thought expressed elsewhere; 'what if they all throw a post-PANAMAX party....and nobody came?).

However, as Mr. G notes, I am at a loss to think of any means to have handled traffic off the DL&W to Port Elizabeth, i.e. any interchange with what has become CR Shared Assets, without accessing publicly owned routes that rightfully should be reserved for their present day intended use - passenger trains.

I understand what some of you have said regarding dwindling ridership but that was back then. The highways are getting clogged more then ever. I've spoken to people who've committed from as far as East Strouds to as close as Mt Arlington and the traffic is getting worse.

It was bad on Rts 80 and 46 along with the backroads when I traveled from Dover to Wayne 5 days a week for school and back between 2001 and 2005. I can't imagine how bad it is now.

I do support NJT's Original Plan to bring back rail service to at least East Strouds. A huge park and ride with rail storage yard can be built there. Our residents in the Andover and Blairstown Area should and can be taken care off. To Hell with the NIMBYS! They don't dictate the transpiration needs for the state. They can go get clogged in their own highway traffic that I unfortunately have to put up with.

Its not NJT's problem after the last NJT station, its PADOT , and until they are willing to cough up the money for construction, rail equipment and cost sharing there won't be service to anywhere in Pocono's

DutchRailnut wrote:Its not NJT's problem after the last NJT station, its PADOT , and until they are willing to cough up the money for construction, rail equipment and cost sharing there won't be service to anywhere in Pocono's

PENNDOT...

If Wolf wins in november, we may see the needle move and things start to gain a foothold from the governor's office down in regards to this and other projects that need sorting with NJ. Corbett has no interest in transit, all he cares about is filling every square foot with fracking wells before new wells get banned. That is the state of things here in PA.

I would like to know where this line terminates if it never crosses the delaware. Near the river doesnt look easy to build multi-yard tracks akin to morrisville.

NJTRailfan wrote:I To Hell with the NIMBYS! They don't dictate the transpiration needs for the state. They can go get clogged in their own highway traffic that I unfortunately have to put up with.

Unfortunately the NIMBYs are the ones running for or serving local governments. A few of these like-minded people make life miserable for potentially everyone. Just ask the owners of Raceway Park in Englishtown. They built that track 50 years ago and it is a well-known revenue producer for the township. However, some NIMBYs have banded together to make life miserable for the operators. They, in turn, are basically telling them what they can and can't do. Same goes for the railroads. Look at the morons who don't want horns blown at crossings. It's just another example of the over-selfishness that exists in today's society.

First, while I doubt if a 'businessman 'challenger' (Romney wasn't exactly successful with such credentials lest we forget) is about to have the incumbent put aboard the Polaris and 'blast off' for wherever so long as it is not Pennsylvania, let us not lose sight that rail and highway budgets are largely segregated and New Jersey's interests are not served by any extension of the Cutoff beyond what is deemed necessary for NJ residents (and of course their votes). If there were enough votes in Warren County (Blairstown), there would be an initiative to extend the Cutoff there, but apparently such is not the case.

Another point to consider is that NJ benefits from having the busses handling Monroe County (PA; Stroudsburg) passengers; regardless of where they 'gas up', NJ receives fuel tax revenue - and they receive even more when those busses are stuck in traffic jams. It would simply be absurd to envision any scenario where some PA agency funds NJ to rebuild the Cutoff to the Delaware (Mr. Hertz, the bridge built by the Lackawanna on which they 'played George Washington' looks like a mighty sound structure), thence make NJT 'whole' for any operating losses incurred. Failing some kind of miracle, those who bought houses in Monroe County yet continued to work in NY simply fell prey to some smooth talking real estate broker's 'speil' of 'it's coming and when it does prices will skyrocket; so how about getting on board now?' were simply 'PT Barnum fodder'.

The reality is, local officials in Pennsylvania have been trying to get their state's share of the money appropriated for many years. The total cost of the project has risen to probably over $600 million and Pennsylvania needs help funding their part of it. Nothing can happen until they secure funding.

Both [Governor's spokesman Steve] Chizmar and Erin Waters-Trasatt, a spokeswoman for Pennsylvania’s Department of Transportation, said Pennsylvania applied under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act’s high speed rail component for $401 million in funding for the project in 2009 — when Democrat Ed Rendell was governor — but was denied any funds.

Officials in northeast Pennsylvania want the project to get built, but it's a big state and people in other parts of Pennsylvania don't see the Scranton-Hoboken rail line as a priority.

U.S. Rep. Matt Cartwright believes...it’s important for the region’s economic future, even though it would cost more than the $551 million estimated in a 2006 NJ Transit study. “Not a week goes by I don’t work on it,” said Cartwright, D-Moosic, who represents Pennsylvania’s 17th Congressional District, which includes Scranton and Wilkes-Barre. To try to move it along, the congressman has been meeting regularly with Sens. Blake, D-Archbald, and Yudichak, D-Plymouth Township, and met recently with Democratic state Reps. Mike Carroll, D-Avoca, Frank Farina, who represents parts of Lackawanna and Wayne counties, and Marty Flynn, whose district includes Scranton and nearby parts of Lackawanna County. “A lot of it depends on what happens politically in Harrisburg,” Cartwright said.

Link to Scranton Times-Leader news article

Big picture/we are all in the same boat mentality is what is really lacking here. Privately people live work and run errands & visit friends all over the delaware border counties. Politically & legally there is a border, but in day to day life the reality is that the delaware river border counties operate as a mostly cohesive region unto itself. Half the people i know live in NJ and work in PA or live in PA and work in NJ. Their shopping, outings with family, and so on routinely cross the river multiple times a day. To not have transit set up t accommodate this pattern is just plain stupid. That said, i feel an extension from hackettstown & the west trenton line make way more sense than a 60 mile route with 5 stations. Thats just my own take on it having grown up and lived in this area my entire life.

25Hz wrote:Big picture/we are all in the same boat mentality is what is really lacking here. Privately people live work and run errands & visit friends all over the delaware border counties. Politically & legally there is a border, but in day to day life the reality is that the delaware river border counties operate as a mostly cohesive region unto itself. Half the people i know live in NJ and work in PA or live in PA and work in NJ. Their shopping, outings with family, and so on routinely cross the river multiple times a day. To not have transit set up t accommodate this pattern is just plain stupid. That said, i feel an extension from hackettstown & the west trenton line make way more sense than a 60 mile route with 5 stations. Thats just my own take on it having grown up and lived in this area my entire life.

I have always wondered WHY they never mention extending the Hackettstown to Phillipsburg segment of old DL&W. The line is used less now than it ever has. With BASF expected to close in Washington,that means less revenue for NS,unless someone else buys the BASF plant and continues using rail service.It sure wouldn't be hard for NJT to get their trains on the line.

CNJ Fan 4evr wrote:

25Hz wrote:Big picture/we are all in the same boat mentality is what is really lacking here. Privately people live work and run errands & visit friends all over the delaware border counties. Politically & legally there is a border, but in day to day life the reality is that the delaware river border counties operate as a mostly cohesive region unto itself. Half the people i know live in NJ and work in PA or live in PA and work in NJ. Their shopping, outings with family, and so on routinely cross the river multiple times a day. To not have transit set up t accommodate this pattern is just plain stupid. That said, i feel an extension from hackettstown & the west trenton line make way more sense than a 60 mile route with 5 stations. Thats just my own take on it having grown up and lived in this area my entire life.

I have always wondered WHY they never mention extending the Hackettstown to Phillipsburg segment of old DL&W. The line is used less now than it ever has. With BASF expected to close in Washington,that means less revenue for NS,unless someone else buys the BASF plant and continues using rail service.It sure wouldn't be hard for NJT to get their trains on the line.

Phillipsburg service via the RVL would be much faster and would have more riders. It would be redundant to have both routes and the RVL has been deemed the better option by NJT. However, NJT also thinks High Bridge-Phillipsburg wouldn't generate much ridership either.