Jenkintown-Wyncote Park&Ride / Garage

Don't get sucked into the hype of the r8. It seems to me that r8newtown is an elaborate diversion created by the NIMBY'S of jenkintown and glenside who are against the construction of 2 highrise parking garages at their train stations.
OHHH not true you say! well where has r8newtown been for the last 25 years and why have they waited until after the parking garages have been known to get so vocal.(just a coincidence I guess) also,why does r8newtown want to use the funds allocated for the garages to pay for r8? Interestingly r8newtown has ignored prior ridership (or lack of) studies for their own estimates (where's the proof). their estimates have many hundreds of cars parked along r8 stations where currently there are no parking lots(did some one just say highrise parking in bucks county?) and why does r8newtowns website have under "documents/quick facts" a flier listing northampton twp as an endorsement, yet under "supporters & endorsements they list 3 northampton supervisors as waffling( 3 is a majority vote in that twp.)
So how desperate are they and what is the truth? Visit their web site and decide for yourself. I did and let me say i will not be a pawn in the NIMBY game.

I see somebody's got so excited about the project that they dedicated their first ever post to lobbing accusations and hysterics. I think the vast majority of the posters on here would prefer both new garages along the Reading trunk line and service restored to newtown. I do find it funny how somepeople believe a first ever post will suddenly change perceptions. Did you bother to read the "No Hope for Newtown" thread on here that had 30+ pages?
I guess I'm guilty for feeding the troll.

I think you're being unfair to Jon and the other pro-Newtown activists. Support for Fox Chase-Newtown restoration has been there all along, among DVARP and other rail advocates and among people in the Bucks County communities served by the line. It's not all a diversion.

Yes, the Wyncote NIMBYs (*) have seized upon supporting the Newtown project as a means of trying to halt the Jenkintown garage project (as well as using it as a vehicle for arguing they're not anti-transit--they're just against projects in their neighborhood), but support for reopening the line didn't start with them.

Meanwhile there are transit advocates who oppose the garage for non-NIMBY reasons (mainly cost). That's why DVARP had a pretty lively debate about the matter before voting to endorse the Jenkintown project.

That said, the NIMBYs' interest in the Newtown branch is entirely about using it to divert park/ride passengers to somebody else's neighborhood and using it to shift funding away from the Jenkintown project.

A lot of the stuff the NIMBYs are peddling is exaggerated, like the claim that 83% of Jenkintown commuters are bypassing stations closer to their home to use Jenkintown, and the claim that SEPTA is trying to kill off service to Melrose Park and Elkins Park and centralize service at Jenkintown. And it's true that the NIMBYs showed no interest in public transit issues until the garage project was proposed. For those reasons, I don't think the NIMBYs should be embraced as allies in the effort to get Newtown service restored.

DVARP's position is to support both the park/ride projects and the Newtown service restoration. But as much as we'd like for Newtown to be happening soon, Bucks and Montgomery counties are prioritizing other projects, and Newtown isn't going anywhere until the counties are on board.


*--while there are some neighbors opposed to the Glenside project, there is no organized NIMBYism and other residents and elected officials (spoke to the Abington commissioner last month) support it, so I wouldn't speak of Glenside NIMBYs.

Welcome a.red.light

a.lightred wrote:Don't get sucked into the hype of the r8. It seems to me that r8newtown is an elaborate diversion created by the NIMBY'S of jenkintown and glenside who are against the construction of 2 highrise parking garages at their train stations.

Actually, you're incorrect. The r8 movement was founded on its own merits. I personally have been writing to SEPTA about the R8 for 11 years now**, and each year, the case for it gets stronger and stronger. Coincidentally, certain agencies in the region have recently felt that parking garages would be a better solution to our transportation problems instead of building more stations, in this case, reviving a dormant line.

a.lightred wrote: OHHH not true you say! well where has r8newtown been for the last 25 years and why have they waited until after the parking garages have been known to get so vocal.(just a coincidence I guess) also,why does r8newtown want to use the funds allocated for the garages to pay for r8?

Good point, glad you brought it up. 25 years ago I was in grade school. The recent economic downturn and recession has given me the opportunity to devote time to a innovative way of bringing the large amount of interest in this line together through the internet. Something that has never been done before in this area by transit advocates. I encourage you to read the article by Chuck Bode on the internet and the reactivation of this line: http://www.r8newtown.com/documents/lett ... deadR8.pdf.

So why do we want to use funds for the garages to build the R8? Because SEPTA's proposed garages are an acknowledgement that there are gaps in the current regional system in both capacity and coverage: Train service does not extend far enough, it does not have enough stations, or it does not have lines or stations in the right places. In the ideal situation, nearly all passengers would be walk-ups and parking would be minimal. Adding parking takes us FURTHER away from the ideal situation. Adding or extending lines and opening stations on existing lines brings us CLOSER to the ideal situation.

a.lightred wrote: Interestingly r8newtown has ignored prior ridership (or lack of) studies for their own estimates (where's the proof).

Proof is in the pudding my friend. Look around at the roads in Northampton, and at the parking lots on the R2/R3. We are turning people away.

a.lightred wrote: So how desperate are they and what is the truth? Visit their web site and decide for yourself. I did and let me say i will not be a pawn in the NIMBY game.

A pawn? You? Sounds alot like the pot calling the kettle black

**I should also mention I have lived in Upper Southampton for most of my life. I am not from Jenkintown.

I am one of the many residents of Wyncote that Matthew Mitchell, PhD seems to enjoy calling "NIMBYs." An intended insult from Matthew is actually beginning to seem more like a badge of honor. The real diversion here is the use of the "NIMBY" name calling. We should not deny the facts that clearly demonstrate that expanded commuter rail service, not large garages in the inner suburbs, is a better solution. We need to discuss the problems of a lack of trains, crowded trains, and little or no parking at outer stations; not cover the problems over with a Band-Aid in the form of large garages at inner suburban stations and letting the real problems fester.

I grew up in Glenside, bought my first house in Glenside and my present home in Old Wyncote. My elders and many good instructors taught me well over the years. On matters of real estate and energy efficiency there was always full agreement that houses within walking distance of a commuter rail station would become more valuable as fuel became more expensive. I always wondered why so many people were ignoring basic physics, the fact that fossil fuels are finite, and building or buying homes on good farmland well beyond the reach of commuter rail. Did they not understand that the age of "happy motoring" is about finished? Did they not understand that no form of transit is as energy efficient as steel wheels rolling on steel rails?

I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on any type of rail system. However, I do claim to have enough common sense to see that large Park and Rides only serve a good purpose at the outer end of a rail line. Given a choice between improving and expanding commuter rail service in the entire region or forcing more traffic into the inner suburbs, common sense screams out for the expanded service. Studies after study after report all confirm that we need to reduce VMT and GHG. SEPTA needs to increase rider miles, not just ridership. Our leaders are faced with an urgent responsibility to reduce driving and traffic congestion throughout the region.

It will not be easy for Americans to withdraw from their addiction to their automobiles, but we must find ways to do it. Importing 67% of our oil and burning 67% of that for transportation in unsustainable because it weakens our economy and our national security. The best first step is to dramatically increase use of commuter and intercity rail. Not next decade or next year; tomorrow morning.

In attempting to understand why SEPTA was eliminating stations and the DVRPC and MCPC were continuing to put so much effort and tax dollars into roads and highways when by now every educated planner should have a clue about what the future looks like, I came across the R8 group. They are a fast growing and talented group of heroes. They "get it." I love those guys. Our group of 500+ will do whatever we can to help them get the R8 reinstated because it is good public policy to increase commuter rail service. They are like a breath of fresh air blowing through a dark room full of stale cigar smoke exhaled from the good old boys of the Robert Moses fan club.

The residents of Old Wyncote love the Jenkintown-Wyncote Station. That is a very big reason that they chose to live near it. It is the busiest SEPTA rail station outside of Philadelphia and they like that too. The charge of NIMBYism falls hollow when used on people that already live with such a wonderful and busy train station. Two thirds of the residents living in Jenkintown and Wyncote that use the station walk to the train or get dropped off. Nearly 80% of the cars that park every workday at J-W have by-passed their home station. These are facts from the May 2009 SEPTA rider survey. Why does anyone want even more riders to abandon their home station and drive to a Glenside or J-W parking garage? Everyone should try to stop the name-calling, discuss the facts and help to give good train service to as many other citizens throughout the region as possible.

^ Thomas,

Let's just say hypothetically, for the sake of argument, that there is undeniable proof that there are a large number of potential rail users (who now all drive into Center City) who live close to the Jenkintown, Elkins Park, and Melrose Park rail stations.

The people currently drive to work because they cannot find parking at these stations, and they live just far enough away for walking to be practical. If they knew there would be a parking spot for them at the train station on a daily basis, they would commit to using public transportation.

At which site would you plan to build a garage and why.

If the alientated R8 riders who are currently using the R2 and R3 are recalled to the R8 when it opens, that would create the parking needed at these stations without the need for any type of parking expansion. Studies already prove that residents from Newtown, Southampton, Hatboro and Bethayers are driving to Jenkintown for 2 very important reasons: 1- Frequency of service at their home station, and 2- lack of parking at their home station.

If any parking expansion project had to take place, it should occur at the end of the line, not in the middle of it, where the trains are already full.

Where to build a parking garage? I havev a great place for one: Newtown Township, right on the Newtown Bypass which is a major 4 lane highway that is 2 miles from Interstate 95. Why there? Its the end of the line where you have a huge rider catchment area (look at a map), and you have a supporting road system to get the cars in and out of the station. Furthermore, its in a non-residential area so the traffic does not affect local residents. In fact, Newtown has already zoned that land for a rail station. Talk about being on the 8 ball.

Everyone: This has become a very interesting debate concerning parking and access to good rail service.
Just a thought: Think of this term: "MAGNET" stations: Does SEPTA have a "top ten list" of the stations that attract the most riders from a wide outlying area around them? On Long Island the top two stations in ridership-Hicksville and Ronkonkoma in that order-are very much stations of that type-with Ronkonkoma despite its considerable parking space there seems to always be a shortage of parking there...can SEPTA balance the Jenkintown demand between automobile access to parking and local neighbors? It may be a tough call...Thoughts from MACTRAXX

Hi "Sarah a.red.light. Palin" Welcome to RR.net. Glad your first post was a well thought out, researched and coherent contribution. The facts are all wrong, but the argument you made is certainly provacative, I'll give you that. Also glad enough people have set you straight. Feel free to respond to all of this sometime soon. I am curious. Then again, you have a right to be chafing. Northampton Township just re-elected corrupt GOP supervisor George Komelasky, who along with Vince Deon, is robbing their constituents blind. But hey, ignorance is bliss, right? Good luck over there...

jfrey40535 wrote:So why do we want to use funds for the garages to build the R8? Because SEPTA's proposed garages are an acknowledgement that there are gaps in the current regional system in both capacity and coverage: Train service does not extend far enough, it does not have enough stations, or it does not have lines or stations in the right places. In the ideal situation, nearly all passengers would be walk-ups and parking would be minimal. Adding parking takes us FURTHER away from the ideal situation.

Every transit system in the country has expanded their current rail systems---except SEPTA.

Metro-North: Wassaic
LIRR (which is pretty much maxed out already): JFK air-train
NJT: Meadowlands, Montclair, RiverLINE, Atlantic City Line, Hackettstown, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, etc.
MARC: Fredericksburg
VRE, Shore Line East: new start-ups
MBTA: Newburyport, Plymouth, Greenbush line
SEPTA:??? (airport was started before their time, Parkesburg does not count because it required no real expansion and was nixed anyway; Thorndale was built for convenience of turning trains only, Wilmington/Newark is paid for by DE, SEPTA has no interest in it)

Garages are actually an excellent idea---when implemented correctly. Hamilton and Metropark (NJT) make sense because they are accessible off of a major artery (GSP and I-295). Terminal stations also make a heluva lot of sense, particularly if they too are near major arteries, like NJT's Trenton (US 1) and especially the LIRR's Ronkonkoma (LIE).

West Trenton on the R3 (I-95, terminal) and Doylestown on the R5 (202 bypass, terminal) would be good. Probably the best parking garage on the system in the well-placed Norristown Transportation Center. US-202 and the PA-Turnpike are nearby, the Rt. 100 terminates there, and the R6 more or less ends there (Elm and Main Sts. are extra stops for locals).

Jenkintown? Glenside? Hatboro? (yes, that is next) Are you for real? Little hamlets with no major arteries nearby. Yes, headways are better there to be sure. But this all diverts from the fact that SEPTA and DVRPC...at one time...was very pro-expansion. The 1991 study must be read in its entirety to be believed - http://www.r8newtown.com/documents/1991 ... nStudy.pdf. If only SEPTA has followed through, we would have a very different---and better--situation right now.

As recently as the strike, SEPTA still admits "As our daily Regional Rail riders know, SEPTA is already operating at full capacity." Garages are not the answer where they currently are planning to put them. Grow the system.

...

Thomas K. McHugh wrote:It will not be easy for Americans to withdraw from their addiction to their automobiles, but we must find ways to do it.

But why look backwards at 19th century rails? Why not look forward to 21st century rails? http://www.ruf.dk/ has a solution that works *with* automobiles rather than against them, and has most of the advantages of trains.

limejuice wrote:As a resident of Glenside, I can tell you that the roads around Glenside and Jenkintown Stations are at or exceeding capacity during rush hour. If they put in those garages, how are the roads supposed to handle the excess traffic? Wouldn't the resulting congestion then counteract the value of living within walking distance of the station?

1--The Jenkintown project includes reconfiguration of the station driveways and the intersection of Glenside and Greenwood (which is where most of the problems are). That is in fact one of the purposes of the project: to help that flow better. The result will actually decrease congestion at Glenside and Greenwood, since much of the station traffic will be directed away from the intersection. The Glenside project is not as far along, so I haven't seen much about the impacts there.

2--Park/ride traffic is only a small fraction of the auto traffic in and around the stations, and that other traffic is continuing to grow, so traffic congestion is going to worsen even with the no-build alternative. Assuming a two-hour rush hour, the added traffic from the Jenkintown garage will average a car every 40 seconds or so. As that traffic gets split among six different approach/exit routes, the impact is lessened. For instance, Greenwood Ave on the Wyncote side carries only 8% of the station traffic, so the added traffic there is less than a a car every six minutes. Glenside Ave. carries 20%, so that's about a car every three minutes. Compare that to the current traffic levels on those streets, and you'll understand that the station isn't the primary cause of the congestion there.

3--Things are gonna get worse before they get better: PennDOT is going to tear down and replace the Greenwood Ave bridge in the next few years (a project that has no connection to the park/ride expansion [*]). There's also a proposal to reconfigure the West Ave intersection on the other side of the bridge, possibly replacing it with a circle. I don't know enough about that to say what the best alternative is there.

*--to the extent that they can do both projects at the same time, it will reduce the local impacts. Over 60% of the park/ride traffic is coming over the bridge, so some kind of diversion is going to be necessary while the bridge is out, and I'd expect it'll inconvenience enough riders that park/ride demand will be significantly reduced while the bridge is out. That might be the right time to do the garage project.

Watusi,

Thank you for your hypothetical question. You are part of a valuable discourse that needs to occur on this issue. We hope that your hypothetical comes true and a large number of workers that presently drive to center city and that live close to Jenkintown-Wyncote, Elkins Park and Melrose Park stations would decide to start using SEPTA commuter rail.

Presently there are an average of 65 empty parking spaces every day at Melrose Park Station, but SEPTA does not stop the trains there nearly as often as at J-W even though MP is on the inbound side of J-W. Elkins Park is basically full, is also inbound from J-W, but also lacks frequency of service. Go to www.septa.org/maps/click_map.html and click on as many train stations as you like north or south of J-W and see the average number of used and available parking spaces. You will see that aside from MP, North Hills with 65 available spaces, and Orland with 32 available spaces, nearly every station on the R2, R3 and R5 have no parking spaces available. If trains could be scheduled to stop more often at MP, NH, and OR it is reasonable to assume that new riders will use those stations. We also know that a significant number of riders stopped walking to EP and started driving and parking at J-W due to the reduced frequency of train service at EP.

To answer your question; Assuming that the shortage of parking and train service continues region wide, and the R8 is not reinstated, it is logical to expect that garages at J-W and/or Glenside will only encourage many more residents of the outer suburbs to drive south and grab all available new parking, leaving nothing extra for Jenkintown and Wyncote residents. The reward for the residents of Jenkintown, Wyncote and Glenside for allowing the garages to be built will only be more traffic. Nearly 80% of the cars parked at J-W every workday belong to riders that by-passed their home station. Clearly there is more demand for service and parking then presently exists at the outer stations. Therefore, I don't see a reason to build large garages at either J-W or Glenside. Our tax money would be better spent increasing service on every line, reinstating the R8 Line, and increasing parking at the outer stations as needed. All of this would decrease or eliminate the need for garages at J-W and Glenside.

When we asked SEPTA engineers and planners why they don't stop the trains more often at the stations with available parking and many walk-up riders, the response was that the riders from the far suburbs do not want to suffer the dwell time that is required for those stops. We are amazed at the implied arrogance of that answer. Shouldn't riders from the outer suburbs expect a longer train ride? Why should potential riders in the smaller inner suburban and city stations be left standing on the platform watching trains zoom by without stopping?

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

limejuice wrote:As a resident of Glenside, I can tell you that the roads around Glenside and Jenkintown Stations are at or exceeding capacity during rush hour. If they put in those garages, how are the roads supposed to handle the excess traffic? Wouldn't the resulting congestion then counteract the value of living within walking distance of the station?

1--The Jenkintown project includes reconfiguration of the station driveways and the intersection of Glenside and Greenwood (which is where most of the problems are). That is in fact one of the purposes of the project: to help that flow better. The result will actually decrease congestion at Glenside and Greenwood, since much of the station traffic will be directed away from the intersection. The Glenside project is not as far along, so I haven't seen much about the impacts there.

Matthew - I want to agree with you, I really do. But only if you can pinpoint another example of a parking garage built in an already congested area with little access to major arteries.

Pacobell73 wrote: Thorndale was built for convenience of turning trains only, Wilmington/Newark is paid for by DE, SEPTA has no interest in it)

For what it's worth, I railfanned to Thorndale Saturday, arriving just before 1pm and came right back. About 10 passengers disembarked and another 10 boarded for the return. Is that a good or bad number for Saturday midday at a single outlying SEPTA station with approximately 90 minute headway?