How might a broken rail be discovered?

Not to split hairs, but I believe the track department is using a product called "fire-snake" for their rail repairs. It's essentially a "clean burning and smokeless" alternative to diesel/kerosine soaked rope. A quick google search can take you to the manufacturers website for more info.


If you'll allow me to segue for a moment, I lurked this board for years and only recently have I started posting. As far as lirr42 goes, his presence on the board made me NOT want to post. Northpit's comment summarizes my feeling perfectly. I've got hands on, practical experience working here and this guy who hasn't spent a minute working in the industry is going to tell me that my training and experience is wrong with bar graphs and pie charts.

To drive home the point... a few months ago, on the LIRR Facebook page, he was in the comments section bashing a gang on their choice of RWP because the watchman wasn't engaged in work. I explained "how and why" and it fell on deaf ears. Apparently, we should be installing automated train approach warning systems and seeking waivers to use it from the FRA. Here's a guy who's never called for foul time from a tower, or worked on tracks near a blind bend and he's going to blast a group of guys who are doing the right thing as per company policy and federal statute... All because he feels it could be done better and he has the numbers from several short-line railroads to prove it!

SwingDog wrote:If your defending that malicious fools racist and hateful posts, there's room for you where he went. no one here had any use for his nonsense. I see hes all over Newsday.com this morning an they havent banned him yet

If his posts were that offensive, why did folks keep replying to his posts?

You may not have agreed with some of his viewpoints, but he does have the right to express himself

Yes and no.

Folks around here try to help people understand how things work. Sometimes we should just walk away from a discussion but we know someone is wrong and don't want their propaganda spread to others, which would cause others to have an incorrect understanding of how things work. There was a a user named Jersey Mike that would spew all kinds of BS about "how things work" and the railroaders would try to correct him, because otherwise us civilians would really believe what Mike had to say. It didn't help that Mike was a jerk that thought he knew more than the rest of us.

Also, this forum is not a democracy. That isn't to say we censor or delete posts that we don't agree with - we encourage informed debate and discourse. But at the end of the day, if you're going to be a PITA like Jersey Mike or LIRR42, you're going to get the boot because it drives others away, regardless of your first amendment rights. We can do that because this site has a private owner that pays for it, it's not a public place. When you sign up, you agree to abide by the rules. By the way, I'm not the owner. I've volunteered my time here for 6-7 years and been a member since 2003 or so. I really enjoy the discussion and have learned a lot. I moderate because it's an easy job and I hope I can give back to the community that has been good to me. A few times a year we have to boot some a-hole that causes problems but otherwise the moderator job is pretty tame.

To be fair, I don't think the moderation's been all that harsh in "SHUT YOUR FOAMER MOUTH WHEN THE RAILROADERS ARE TALKING!" sense. I think RR.net could legitimately have been criticized for that attitude in its earliest years when it hadn't quite figured out what it wanted to be. Back when I first regged in '05 that was my experience as a newbie...it was a lot more insidery and intimidating to navigate with the passive-aggression that sometimes got doled out at certain questions because the questioner had never "done it before out in the field". But that was TEN years ago. The site found its balance between the railroaders, the railfans, the planning wonks, and so on. Honestly, probably better than it ever has since the ownership change a couple years ago.

It gets unpleasant when somebody tests the boundaries of that balance. If you're going to get shouted down for asking an honest question (as could happen in the old days), it's unpleasant and you're less likely to come back and contribute. If you're going to get your entire livelihood and the livelihoods of your peers dragged through the mud day after day by somebody with an agenda to push, it's unpleasant and you're less likely to come back and contribute. If somebody keeps spreading misinformation over and over again that has to be corrected over and over again because of agenda-pushing or somebody so thoroughly in self-awe of how their @#$% don't stink that they've become incapable of learning new things...it becomes a thankless chore to log in and people are less likely to come back.

If you're looking for a common thread in some of these high-profile banninations, it has a whole lot less to do with some groups being more favored than others and a whole lot more to do with "don't be a jerk". If a jerk has so little regard for the health of the community that they're willing to wage a war of attrition on someone or everyone to drive away traffic, that's a threat to the site's livelihood. And you better believe the site owners have a self-interest to not let that happen, because boards die that way. It's happened on the flipside too here in previous eras where the police-state moderation itself was driving away users, and the moderation had to be loosened up to bring things back to healthy balance. If there's anything 'sacred' that has to be preserved above all else, it's the reason for people to keep coming back. As many have said, they've had to stay away almost as a containment strategy for one poster's rage issues and crusade to drown certain inconvenient facts and counterpoints in a bathtub full of manufactured statistical noise. It doesn't really matter if the guy was in good standing or did far more good than bad in his time here...it had reached the point of existential threat to forum traffic.

Nobody has come forward with a solitary example of where lirr42 broke forum rules. Just where he disagreed with people. And if he got banned for that, you might as well ban everyone and shut the forum down, since opinions are pretty much all that’s expressed here. I almost never participate on these forums because I feel that there’s two sets of rules-one that the people who work for the railroad get to follow, and another that the people that disagree with them have to follow. Claiming otherwise amounts to false advertising:

The moderation in these forums is hugely biased, and this is yet another example. The forum’s policies at the top say that someone who’s violated the rules (and nobody has yet to provide an example of where he did break the rules) gets a first warning, second warning , third warning, then a temporary ban (1 to 7 days) then and only then a permanent ban.

Meanwhile I have seen several examples where posters like SwingDog and SwingMan have posted insulting or otherwise inappropriate statements and no action appears to have been taken against them. (If you want to see for yourself, let’s see whose post is still here in 24 hours, mine or the one above where SwingDog called lirr42 a “malicious racist” with no evidence to support that claim). If Tadman says he bans people because they “drive others away” then he should ban himself. It’s the biased moderation around here that drives away many more users than someone expressing their opinion, including myself.

The biased moderation will kill off this forum faster than anything else. The amount of things being posted here is already a fraction of what it once was. It’s happened to other forums, and it will happen here.

Regarding broken rails: I read the NTSB report about the Bridgeport derailment and I get concerned when I hear that a broken rail’s been found someplace along my commute. It’s easy to dismiss little things like this as not important, but that’s probably just what Metro-North did, and look what happened 7 months later…. I don’t want to be sitting here over the summer talking about how half a dozen passengers were killed in a derailment on the LIRR… “History repeats itself.”

Anyway, I’ve disagreed with the railroad workers, so I’ll probably get banned now too. But go ahead, continue to surround yourself with people who will only tell you what you want to hear. That’s the coward’s way of going through life.

About time! Don't let the door hit you..

THIRD AVENUE EL wrote:Nobody has come forward with a solitary example of where lirr42 broke forum rules. Just where he disagreed with people. And if he got banned for that, you might as well ban everyone and shut the forum down, since opinions are pretty much all that’s expressed here. I almost never participate on these forums because I feel that there’s two sets of rules-one that the people who work for the railroad get to follow, and another that the people that disagree with them have to follow. Claiming otherwise amounts to false advertising:

He did. When the forums migrated to the new host last month there were those couple weekends where new posts were inadvertently getting zapped across the site for because of server hiccups (also...this was right when the Metro North grade crossing accident happened so crush-load site traffic was also putting excessive load on the buggy servers and causing rampant failures). One poster decided, despite the stickied thread at the top of every forum explaining the technical glitches, to start going full-conspiratorial that the mods were selectively deleting his posts to punish him. Which was not true...and, moreover, he knew it was not true when posting that flamebait. That's a rather flagrant rule violation right there. The fact that he kept posting that debunked accusation long afterwards was his way of daring them for a ban.

About half of the page count on this thread had to be redacted because of that and other nastiness, nuking a bunch of good posts in the process.

The moderation in these forums is hugely biased, and this is yet another example. The forum’s policies at the top say that someone who’s violated the rules (and nobody has yet to provide an example of where he did break the rules) gets a first warning, second warning , third warning, then a temporary ban (1 to 7 days) then and only then a permanent ban.

I'm not a mod, nor am I 'tight' with any of them. And I mainly lurk on the LIRR thread so I may not be the best to speak to it. But I find it hard to believe based on how long this is going on that he wasn't on Strike Five or Six. He got way more rope than most because of his past contributions, but it was what it was: the chip on his shoulder against LIRR staff was so huge he was intent on committing suicide-by-mod. That's been clear as day ever since he returned a few months ago from his long hiatus. The guy was changed, anger was consuming him, and he wanted to go down a martyr for reasons nobody can fathom. You can't stop a forum member when they decide that's how it's gonna come to a head. It was the only humane thing to do at this point, because the LIRR subforum has been D-E-A-D so far this year in self-preservation avoidance of this ongoing poopshow.

Meanwhile I have seen several examples where posters like SwingDog and SwingMan have posted insulting or otherwise inappropriate statements and no action appears to have been taken against them. (If you want to see for yourself, let’s see whose post is still here in 24 hours, mine or the one above where SwingDog called lirr42 a “malicious racist” with no evidence to support that claim). If Tadman says he bans people because they “drive others away” then he should ban himself. It’s the biased moderation around here that drives away many more users than someone expressing their opinion, including myself.

Well...everyone could probably stand to take a deep breath and move on.

The biased moderation will kill off this forum faster than anything else. The amount of things being posted here is already a fraction of what it once was. It’s happened to other forums, and it will happen here.

Like I said in my last post, there were times in ancient RR.net history where that may have been true. But online forums don't last 10+ years going strong by failing to evolve. The moderation has evolved over time, and was probably a lot looser the last couple years than it was before that. Because the tighter era preceding that was causing some fatigue. Admin and owner listen and adjust...because it's bad if site traffic declines. There were a few agenda-pushing folks over the last year who abused the looseness, and people were getting sick of trying to talk around the doubled-down misinformation or abusiveness. RR.net has always on the tighter end of the scale amongst web forums in terms of moderation...you can be ambivalent about that, but the terms are abundantly clear so who's being cheated? If there was anything the site did wrong to deal with this situation, I'm sure they'll learn and adjust and life and posting activity will go on like it has for the last 10 years.

Regarding broken rails: I read the NTSB report about the Bridgeport derailment and I get concerned when I hear that a broken rail’s been found someplace along my commute. It’s easy to dismiss little things like this as not important, but that’s probably just what Metro-North did, and look what happened 7 months later…. I don’t want to be sitting here over the summer talking about how half a dozen passengers were killed in a derailment on the LIRR… “History repeats itself.”

Valid point. There is a large unknown here: nobody can know what's happening at any given moment deep inside the steel the train runs on. The railroad can only mitigate to the best of its ability to minimize the risk and stay vigilant. Metro North got the book thrown at it because it wasn't staying vigilant and wasn't taking enough of the basic precautions. The investigation spells out why, and what their proof was. We can hope that LIRR hasn't made the same mistakes and that they stay open and transparent about what it is they are doing to mitigate the risk.

That said...no one can simply go shouting throughout the forums that LIRR doesn't give a rat's arse about safety and accuse their employees of not caring whether you live or die on their trains. Without any evidence to back up the accusations of rampant safety violations. And completely talking over every poster with on-the-ground technical knowledge when given reassurances that there is a safety culture, that the reasons for rail breaks are too varied to paint with a broad brush, and that there are fail-safes like a signal cut where the rail is supposed to break. Nobody was saying that there wasn't a whole lot of grey area and uncertainty where best-practices may not be enough. But to keep doubling-down on histrionics like the RR employees are plotting to kill you is shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. It's irresponsible to intentionally try to stir up panic. It crossed the line...flagrantly.

Anyway, I’ve disagreed with the railroad workers, so I’ll probably get banned now too. But go ahead, continue to surround yourself with people who will only tell you what you want to hear. That’s the coward’s way of going through life.

Chill. The weekend's coming up. A long, terrible winter is slowly coming to an end. Good discussion topics are there for the taking. This was a really, really unpleasant spell on the forums and everyone's fatigued. This too shall pass, like it has in the past, and discussion will calmly go on.

F-line to Dudley via Park - great post.

Is this topic about LIRR42 or broken rails?

Sometimes a smoke-filled room benefits from a little venting ---you even vented seven posts back!

What becomes of broken rails?

When a broken rail is fixed how big of a section is cut out from the rail? If its winter do they have to heat it up to a certain temperature and then weld it or thermite weld it?

Commuter X wrote:Is this topic about LIRR42 or broken rails?

Commuter X and Everyone:

With the significant turn of events that this important topic has generated there needs to be a new LIRR
Forum page titled "LIRR Forum Issues and Current Affairs - March 2015" for all of the postings concerning
what has or is going on here at the LIRR Forum...

I agree with many of what has been mentioned here and the majority of us that post here at the LIRR Forum
are here because we want to be here and when the experience becomes negative that is when members do
turn away from contributing to this forum...Does anyone remember the short-lived website "The LIRR.com"
from sometime in the 2005-2009 time period that billed itself as a alternative to what F Line describes as
police state moderation here? That website closed down after numerous confrontations between members
and the site owners threw in the towel and closed shop when things got out of hand which is something
that I do not want to see happen here - many members have contributed time and effort to make this page
what it has turned out to be and I for one would not want to lose it...

I noticed the mention of former members commenting on rail related news stories - I swore that off after what I
read of comments concerning a incident that members like Tadman remember which happened at the South Shore
Hammond (Indiana) Station in which a young woman driving a van tried to beat a freight train by racing it across
the station's parking lot and then turning not only into that same train this van was then hit by a second train
coming in the other direction - three of her children riding with her were killed and I believe she died of her injuries
later - this was captured by cameras in the station parking lot as it happened - and the just plain bizarre comments
from some of these posters after I posted some thoughts like "Stop, Look and Listen" which I remember learning as
when I was young about basic railroad safety and about Operation Lifesaver - a good program that should be more
widely used especially after incidents like the tragic MNCR accident in Valhalla last month...

I learned more about the subject of broken rails thanks to informative postings by members such as docsteve
and as one who understands the expansion and contraction of rails in extreme warm and cold and agree that
a rail break is preferable to a sun kink in regards to signal aspects which themselves can prevent something
more serious from happening thanks to a restricted signal as a result of a rail break...

In closing this thread needs to be split into two sections - one to continue this discussion on broken rails and
how to fix these problems and the other issues and current affairs (my title for the LIRR Forum problems) that
need to be dealt with so we can improve what we have and make this better for all members...

MACTRAXX

Well stated: MACTRAXX

BobLI wrote:When a broken rail is fixed how big of a section is cut out from the rail?

At least the area around the break (around the break being relative) needs to be removed. The rail is assumed to break at its weakest point (not necessarilly true but it will break at a weaker point rather than at a stronger point); so the weak spot is removed. I've seen areas of about a yard or two, although it could be longer, but practically speaking a shorter piece is easier for an MOW crew to handle. If the repair is to be bolted, then there has to be enough lenth to drill the bolt holes at each end, so a yard would be a good minimum length in that case.

If its winter do they have to heat it up to a certain temperature and then weld it or thermite weld it?

If it is winter it may not be weldable. Railroads have Continuous Welded Rail Plans filed with the FRA, which specify the minimum air temperature to do a weld. If it is below the minimum temperature then the repair has to be made with a bolted section. Otherwise, if the temperature is within the welding range, they have a heating procedure as specified in the plan.

docsteve wrote: If the repair is to be bolted, then there has to be enough lenth to drill the bolt holes at each end, so a yard would be a good minimum length in that case.

I can be completely, totally, 110% wrong about this, but I believe a minimum of 9 feet of rail must be between bolted splices on the LIRR. I'm not a track guy and am totally unfamiliar with the standards they follow; I think I've heard this once or twice though. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.