Hartford Line CtDOT New Haven-Springfield - NHHS (Before Launch of Service)

DutchRailnut wrote:CDOT could not afford the line, besides I don't think Amtrak is willing to sell.
Under David Gunn they would have made a chance as his intension was to get rid of commuter contracts.
The next two Amtrak presidents including current one, changed their tune and want the commuter contracts

Connecticut is already one of the highest taxed states in the country. I do not think the taxpayers of Connecticut should
have to pay to support a huge increase in service on this line. I think the state could kick in something to lower the fares
and increase service during normal commuting hours using existing equipment and facilities, it can be done at a reasonable
cost. Anything more will not fly in my opinion, not enough money.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:...it would not be practical to run a train from Hartford
or New Haven to Boston via Springfield these days.

Noel I never said it would.

I wrote that if Massachusetts is going to get involved with extending service from Springfield to New Haven (which they are) it might be someone up there will then suggest they should extend the Worcester trains to Springfield. How far is it from Worcester to Springfield, fifty miles? Why not?

Then it would be ironic if railfans could finally ride commuter trains (plural) all the way from GCT to Boston but via Springfield instead of the NEC. But I only meant railfans would do it. I'd probably do it. I'd love to in fact. I didn't mean it would be a viable service for the general public, changing trains at New Haven and Springfield to get to Boston like we're back in the 1860s.

Althought it might be of some value to people at intermediate stations at that. Say from Worcester to Berlin?

It'd be like riding from New Haven to Wilmington by commuter train (plus two subway trains). I know people who've done it. Not because they thought it was a good way to get from point A to point B, but because they are railfans and they thought it was fun.

And before you level a blast at railfans, two of the "fans" I know who did it are also retired railroaders.

DutchRailnut wrote:seeking stimulus money is not same as getting stimulus money

Well they're sure as heck not going to get stimulus money unless they seek stimulus money.

I believe those people to ask for electrification to severly underestimate the cost.
The Springfield line would be in excess of $580 000 0000 for the 67 or so miles.
my estimate for Danbury branch was $ 200 000 000 and Im told I am very close, and thats not including rolling stock.

$580m including rail stock? I had read $200m before this.

Tommy Meehan wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:...it would not be practical to run a train from Hartford
or New Haven to Boston via Springfield these days.

Noel I never said it would.

I wrote that if Massachusetts is going to get involved with extending service from Springfield to New Haven (which they are) it might be someone up there will then suggest they should extend the Worcester trains to Springfield. How far is it from Worcester to Springfield, fifty miles? Why not?

Then it would be ironic if railfans could finally ride commuter trains (plural) all the way from GCT to Boston but via Springfield instead of the NEC. But I only meant railfans would do it. I'd probably do it. I'd love to in fact. I didn't mean it would be a viable service for the general public, changing trains at New Haven and Springfield to get to Boston like we're back in the 1860s.

Althought it might be of some value to people at intermediate stations at that. Say from Worcester to Berlin?

It'd be like riding from New Haven to Wilmington by commuter train (plus two subway trains). I know people who've done it. Not because they thought it was a good way to get from point A to point B, but because they are railfans and they thought it was fun.

And before you level a blast at railfans, two of the "fans" I know who did it are also retired railroaders.

My understanding is that the line west of Worcester has all kinds of engineering issues and it would be quite expensive to double-track it. This doesn't mean it is not a good idea, but it is not as "easy" as New Haven to Springfield. Whereas the stretch between Providence and New London is NEC, so it would be really up to Rhode Island to decide they would want to pay for it and then the question of finding a suitable operator.

FRN9 wrote:$580m including rail stock? I had read $200m before this.

No that figure is without the required rolling stock. the $200 million the politicians quote, is a totally of the wall figure.

now lets stick to New Haven to Springfield and keep the Worchester and beyond dreams were they belong as Railfan claptrap.

DutchRailnut wrote:now lets stick to New Haven to Springfield and keep the Worchester and beyond dreams were they belong as Railfan claptrap.

My reaction to the above, Dutch labeling a Worcester-Springfield extension of MBTA service "Railfan claptrap?" It convinces me Massachusetts probably is already discussing it.

They are, going back as long ago as three years:

Springfield Mass [i]Republican[/i] wrote:In the Bay State, another plan has been floated to extend the Boston commuter rail line, which currently ends in Worcester, to Springfield. A bill to devote portions of the existing gasoline and motor vehicle sales taxes to commuter rail in New Bedford, Fall River and Springfield has been unveiled.

Here's the link-
http://www.masslive.com/business/republ ... xml&coll=1

So it's not a railfan wet dream, Mr. Dutch, but I agree, given the forum rules it is definitely off-topic. End of story.

[edited once to add news link]

I think electrification should be the least of the focus. The priority should be to double track/upgrade the current line to higher speeds north of the current 80mph cap. Near continuous 90-110mph running speeds with diesel locos would really compete with I-91 and if a SPG-NHV limited stop service of 1:15 could be attained and 1:25 for local, with reasonable fares, you would be hard pressed to find folks still clinging to their cars when only on a good day (no traffic and speeding 75/80mph) could you make that time. Let's root for the CTDOT and the folks in Taxachusetts to impliment and fund a commuter rail service on a higher speed line.

I respectfully disagree, if not now, when?

Amtrak could terminate trains in Springfield with the same equipment all the way through at fast speeds. Hartford to NYC is the same distance from Scranton to Hoboken (120 miles). The new M8s could extend there if electrified. Why not do it right from the start?

Because politicans will be more likely to balk at an investment requring $580mil of a combination of Federal and State funds (both sources being of shaky finances to begin with) versus $200 million of everything including new stations, RoW upgrades and double tracking. Let's start with getting the line to actual commmuter standards and seeing the ridership numbers before throwing another $300 million at the project.

The electrification debate doesn't happen in a vacuum with the NH-HFD-SPR line. New York State wants a high-speed link from NYC to Albany, and of course the Empire Corridor is a Fed high-speed corridor candidate along with the Boston-Empire Corridor link. If New York State gets its act together upgrading up to Albany (and I'm not familiar enough with the news there to know where that stands), then having two electrified lines linking up from the NEC to the inland Main Line ought to be enough to fast-track the Empire Corridor and Boston-Albany high-speed link. No way all of the designated corridors that the Administration is proposing are going to get built, but the first states to pounce and get their acts together on the planning are going to get favored. Connecticut going for a big score now would seem to play into that.

I would agree that the double-tracking, stations, and general infrastructure are much more important and in the real world that's probably what they're going to get pared back to focusing on. But getting the cut on those stimulus monies has a lot to do with attention-getting and getting a shovel-ready proposal to the table fast. It would seem CT is at least taking the right attitude to it. Hey, if you can get electrics up to Springfield it pretty much makes a high-speed jog east an inevitability rather than a pipe dream. If you can get electrics up to Springfield AND Albany, you can be damn sure the whole Empire-Boston link is going to get highest priority for Fed money. I kind of like the gamble of putting all cards on the table and seeing what they can get. If not, it's not like upgraded diesel CR at lower cost isn't a thoroughly nice enough consolation prize.

Tommy Meehan wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:now lets stick to New Haven to Springfield and keep the Worchester and beyond dreams were they belong as Railfan claptrap.

My reaction to the above, Dutch labeling a Worcester-Springfield extension of MBTA service "Railfan claptrap?" It convinces me Massachusetts probably is already discussing it.

If Gov. Patrick has to go to reelection with his tail between his legs because he promised Fall River/New Bedford service and couldn't deliver on the likely 10-figure price tag, then considerably cheaper Springfield service over existing passenger trackage with vastly lower upgrade needs might be the voter-pander Plan B he has to throw out there. If he's going to get dinged up on the South Coast he better be able to hold Western Mass., especially with Pike tolls and paying off transit debts being so thorny an issue west of Worcester. It wouldn't be the most efficient cost-per-rider service in the world, but it would be vastly moreso with the CDOT link to points south and that transfer would give the East-West leg great long-term ridership growth potential and kick the North-South leg up another notch.

Political expediency can create windfalls in the strangest of places. If New Haven-Hartford-Springfield is a safe go and FR/NB is a giant FAIL on securing funding, I would watch this rumor for a little more smoke behind it.

The increased taxes in either Connecticut or Massachusetts that would be required to expand passenger operations to and
from Springfield will kill any proposal that is not reasonable in using what can be used of the existing plant and available
cars and locomotives.
They will have to have a massive increase in state income taxes and sales taxes and probably gasoline taxes and maybe
property taxes too. Even then how will the people in Torrington, Norwich or Willlimantic Connecticut or North Adams or
many other places in both states that will not stand to benefit one least little bit from a huge waste of money to expand
service for a relatively small number of people in a relatively small area?
You people whom are pushing for something like this, I ask you HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THE HUGE TAX INCREASES THAT I
HAVE MENTIONED ABOVE? Do you think you can afford them? Even before a shovel gets turned, both states will have to
spend a large amount for more studies too.
Noel Weaver

I urge people to stay within topic or a modertor will close this topic .
Stay within the CDOT discussion and leave Massachusets dreams on MBTA forum.
As for action on Springfield line, the Cabsignal project on Danbury Branch started in 1988, there still is no signal system despite CDOT's best intentions.