Grafton & Upton Railroad (G&U) Discussion

I am sooooo so sorry.

I dont see what the big deal is with Ken. If you don't like him just ignore him. I don't agree with everyone on here all the time. He does raise some valid points at times and sometimes he is far off base in my opinion. Isn't it easier to ignore him then to attack?

what happened is we developed a heavy haul intermodal bulk materials system that failed to capture business other than waste products. about 11 years of use and excellent investor returns but the waste market didn't like the wheeloaders and 5 sided container application. although waste generators cried about the need for sealed containers, when given the solution they opted for containers with doors. not sealed.
as you can imagine we were exposed to many markets, lots of railroads, pricing and rail operations. i made presentations to bulk materials organizations eveywhere and experienced quitea few railroad generated deal-killers.however, it's life in our society and i remain proud of what we accomplished.
the containers have been scrapped. the railcars have new applications( including one at the army transportation systems command in virginia). the wheeloaders are back in the digging business.

i am not a troll. i appreciate the ability to share thoughts and experiences.
please accept my opinion that g&u has the wrong approach to market development. relying on pre-emption is fiscally dangerous and unsatisfactory for all. ken patrick

Ken, in your mind what would be the right course of action for the G&U to take that would allow them to grow and attract new customers?

Well, I love threads like this.....

2 of the biggest foamers in New England going at a guy who uses his real name......

Sit back, relax and enjoy!

The popcorn is popping.....for Foam Fest 2014!

NOW: Lost in all the BS above was a post by Friends of GU that stated that Jon had spoken to Town Meeting

about installing protection equipment.

KEN PATRICK wrote: please accept my opinion that g&u has the wrong approach to market development. relying on pre-emption is fiscally dangerous and unsatisfactory for all. ken patrick

Ok, THIS is what gets me so foamed up...
implication that G&U is relying SOLELY on preemption as it's main marketing strategy. Now maybe that's not exactly how you meant it Ken, but that's how it comes across, at least to me.
I will echo the above line of query: What WOULD be the right way for G&U to go about it?
While I'm at it, I'll add: What makes you think that the G&U is relying solely on preemption as their main, if not their only "marketing strategy?"

For the sake of those of us who are interested in following what is happening with the Grafton and Upton Railroad, PLEASE stop arguing with Mr. Patrick. If you don't like what he has to say, respond to the post before his. I'm tired of good conversation being derailed by this banter.

Let's continue this thread with news of STB findings, work progress, and activity sightings, which is discussion that ALL of us enjoy.

Hear, hear.

— ye olde moderator

cosmo et al. i'm of the belief that g&u cited preemption in a marketing brochure. think about it. what else does g&u have to offer? it needs to hold itself out as a transload operation free from local zoning restraints i.e. noxious stuff that would generate public opposition elsewhere. even steel re-load faced opposition. hardly noxious. g&u geography generates never-ending controversy. after all, it crosses the bucolic grafton square. it attempts to generate industry in the middle of gentified suburbs. not easy to do. and to use alexandria v norfolk southern as pre-emption support for a 32000 gal propane storage facility reflects a lack of understanding of preemption. sadly, g&u has ruined any chance for local government support of future activity. ken patrick

Please forgive my ignorance here but

On February 27th, 2014 at 18:22 EST., I wrote:I'm still waiting for something on FD35652 "The Gang of Seven" VS. the G&U over the wood pellet transloading in Upton. First filing posted on 1 August of 2012 and been quiet since 20 May 2013. That's got to be some serious lost business.

My question being: Is the amount of time it's taken so far to reach a decision somewhere within the realm of "usual" for the "Surf Board"?

Ken,
Thank you for sharing with us what happened. Please know that I sincerely admire and respect what you tried to accomplish. The fact is that not everything turns out as we hoped, but at least you made a sincere effort. I understand the frustration of making multiple presentations in trying to persuade railroads to alter their operations. Prior to becoming a lawyer I worked for Conrail in the sales and marketing department. My greatest success at Conrail was persuading Conrail Chairman Stanley Crane to support a new initiative for Quaker State Motor Oil originating in Atwater, Ohio. After I left Conrail and enrolled in law school, the whole thing unraveled and fell apart. In my view, the thing that tends to annoy people is when we offer opinions about things that we are not qualified to speak about. In case you have not noticed, you have a tendency to do that. Whereas I tend to find such posts to typically be amusing such that I even laugh out loud, others seem to be less amused. Regardless, none of this really matters. The next deadline in the propane case is March 20 when the town of Grafton is required to file their response. I am eagerly looking forward to reading that document because I believe that the STB is going to render a decision soon. Again, please allow me to offer my heartfelt admiration and respect for your previous efforts. I am confident that if any MSW opportunities arise on the G&U, you will have something worthwhile to contribute. All the best, Atwater (a/k/a Brennan Wall, North Grafton, Mass.).

atwater. thank you for the post. here i am thinking that my posts shed light into the dark corners of illusionary thinking when fellow posters continue to love illusions. most are uncomfortable with my absolutes. far easier to buy into common shared delusions relative to all things railroad. i find the g&u situation instructive . it's a costly exercise in wishful thinking that will have no happy ending for G&U. one cannot discount the power of the taxpayers and their elected officials. ken patrick

Ken, I've never gotten annoyed by your opinions or the opinions of others against yours. I think there are compelling arguments for both sides. The one thing I haven't seen from your stand point is other options. If you feel that the G&U is going about business the wrong way (clearly they are creating enemies but that's going to happen regardless), what are some of the things they should be doing differently (in your mind). I know some may get annoyed by this but if this was your railroad and you were looking to expand your customer base, grow the business and ultimately bring in more income, what would you do?

Don't assume everyone and all town officials are against the railroad. Town school officials are again asking for more operational money and
a possible Prop 2 1/2 override. That gives many of us the opportunity to ask why the town has spent in excess of $60,000 in litigation hassling
the railroad.

b&m et al. need to utilize weight and volume strengths. divisible palletized loads of bagged product. scotts, calcium carbonate etc. product that can be fork-lifted from the railcar to a truck. plastics feed stock air transferred from railcar to truck. obtain private rates from csxt. the current plastics captive shipper stb proceeding would work to gain private rates from csxt who is currently losing the battle. g&u could act like a straw to set up really competitive rates in this corridor. i think there's a shot at propane transferred directly from the railcar to delivery trucks. only storage is in railcars waiting to be off-loaded. this is what stb approved in alexandria v ns for ethanol. alexandria is appealing on geography grounds. csxt has the transflo terminal in westboro so transflo is out. unfortunately g&u is limited by track and geography so big options are out. frankly, i don't believe they can do 2500 cars/year/ 10 cars/day through grafton's common. of course they would need to scrap the pellet bagging operation. let the supplier do the bagging at origin. and propane storage is a non-starter. ken patrick
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