future electrification routes?

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 4:12 am Next to NYP-ALB, the SPG line is probably most likely for future electrification. Even more ambitious could be to have the entire inland route (via Worcester) wired. LAX-San Diego could also benefit, with frequent service and high density.

Amtrak is buying brand new Diesel locomotives for the Empire Services, NYP-ALB, with batteries for propulsion in tunnels under NYC. Why electrify a rail line when there will be no locomotives available to run under them.

Electrifying the SPG line is also not needed because the brand new electric locomotives Amtrak is buying is also a diesel locomotive.

California's Surfliners have also received brand new diesel locomotives. These locomotives have a 20-30 year lifespan depending upon how well they will be maintained.

There is a difference between nice to have stuff and need to have stuff. It seems Amtrak has already made the decision to run Tier 4 diesel locomotives everywhere there are not existing catenary wires above. ie, it is cheaper to buy dual mode locomotives than physically electrifying the corridors. Which sort of makes this entire thread moot because Amtrak has already decided and committed to a different future.

Additionally, Southern California (SB-LA--SD) got heavy snow last night and are experiencing power outages today. Shucks, they have power outages anytime during a year. Do you really want to rely upon a shaky power grid to power your trains?

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:46 pm Amtrak is buying brand new Diesel locomotives for the Empire Services, NYP-ALB, with batteries for propulsion in tunnels under NYC. Why electrify a rail line when there will be no locomotives available to run under them.

Electrifying the SPG line is also not needed because the brand new electric locomotives Amtrak is buying is also a diesel locomotive.

California's Surfliners have also received brand new diesel locomotives. These locomotives have a 20-30 year lifespan depending upon how well they will be maintained.

There is a difference between nice to have stuff and need to have stuff. It seems Amtrak has already made the decision to run Tier 4 diesel locomotives everywhere there are not existing catenary wires above. ie, it is cheaper to buy dual mode locomotives than physically electrifying the corridors. Which sort of makes this entire thread moot because Amtrak has already decided and committed to a different future.

Additionally, Southern California (SB-LA--SD) got heavy snow last night and are experiencing power outages today. Shucks, they have power outages anytime during a year. Do you really want to rely upon a shaky power grid to power your trains?

Well, here's the thing, and I'll point you to the ICT procurement thread. Amtrak is getting diesel/electric because of said shaky power grid. They want to have the diesels as a back-up.

Does this mean we don't need to electrify lines? Oh hell no, we definitely still need to!

Think about it this way: Diesel is $4.09/gal when I checked yesterday near BWI Airport. I'd imagine it'll be maybe more expensive for a diesel engine hauling 10 full passenger cars due to formulation, but buying in bulk and way in advance will bring that cost down.

Meanwhile, renewables are gaining traction and different types of diesel are being made. Diesel from crude oil does have limits on how much is available in our planet.

So why not stretch the chemical consumables for as long as we can?

The point here is don't settle for one or the other. Get yourself in a situation where you can use what you can get, and aren't stuck on one or the other. Amtrak saw this, and thus getting diesel-electric.

IMO Electrification may occur on any route. Even though any route is getting new Diesels that route could electrify and sell off the excess diesels. A good example is Cal train. There will surely be a start up route that can use CalTrain's surplus equipment. In CalTrain's case it is both locos and passenger coaches that will be surplus. Not all but large percent.

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:40 pm

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:24 pm

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:47 am There is exactly one route in Maryland that deserves to be electrified: the Pope's Creek Subdivision, and only as far as Upper Marlboro, and only if a considerable portion of the electrified mileage is double track. There's nowhere else in Maryland where electrification makes any sense at all.

You mean after it's rebuilt to class 4 passenger standards, with some grade crossings eliminated ? Since the plant closed, there's little freight traffic. I bet CSX will be selling it to the state, soon. I'd say, electrify to waldorf, or laplata.

The problem with going any further to Waldorf or La Plata is that the rail route isn't competitive with driving up MD Route 5 to the Branch Avenue Metrorail station. A hypothetical MARC service from Waldorf to D.C would have to go a long way to the north before it could go southwest into the District; the only thing it would provide is traffic relief for commuters to Bowie or Annapolis; anyone going to D.C. or Baltimore would either drive to Branch Avenue or continue to fight their way along US 301 to US 50 and MD Route 3.

In my opinion, Upper Marlboro is far enough south to offer meaningful non-car route mileage for commuters to D.C. or Baltimore, while also providing useful service to a catchment area that has to deal with significant traffic to reach Metrorail, MARC or Amtrak stations. But it has to be rebuilt like you specified, widened to double track and electrified before it would make any sense; in my opinion a diesel MARC service would struggle mightily to attract any significant ridership because it would be perceived as slow.

Having Read the multiple southern maryland transit plans, and heard from friends about the gridlock at all hours , I'd say implement both.
A light rail (or something like E bart) from La Plata to Branch avenue , and a regional rail set up from Waldorf, using EMU. With some reroutes in places, to better serve Upper Marlboro (or even something like a gondola, to server both the fairgrounds, and downtown , so folks aren't waiting for the bus), and frequent connections to bowie town center.
I'd suggest having service to bowie state station for connecting to trains going to either baltimore or DC (with a separate track ending at platform, separate from NEC, and some continuing to either DC or Baltimore, at the bowie junction.

The idea that diesel locos are in some way finite/dedicated, and cannot be re-allocated within Amtrak (or other railroads if required) is insane. Let's do nothing for decarbonization based on the lifespan of some trains.

Also worth noting that diesels or bi-modes would still likely be necessary beyond Albany to Buffalo, Burlington, and Montreal.

I agree that New Haven-Springfield should be wired too. In an ideally world, there would be a 2-4 + car EMU which could interwork with SLE on these routes. The ones to the Valley, or anything which heads to Worcester, would be regular Amtrak stock (aforementioned bi-modes). Separately, Boston-Worcester has to be a very strong contender for wires too, which builds the case for joining the dots at Springfield.

I won't claim to know the specifics day to day operations of railroads, or many of the finer details. I'm not well versed in that sort of thing.

But what I do know is that, even now, there is still very little incentive in this country to electrify, due to the costs and how our railroads are structured. The best you'd be able to hope for if you're an electric fan is to bit by bit expand the system from what you already have. And even then, that requires the space, the money, traffic to keep it cost effective, and the incentive to build it in the first place. You simply cannot expect this kind of thing to be done overnight or even in a generation amongst the largest lines. Of which, some previous users failed to recognize.

The two options you'd have that qualify are NYC to Albany, and DC to Richmond. Currently at least. Both of which have some previously stated issues.

What could kickstart this, at least in the Northeast, isn't in the US at all. If Canada is serious about their high speed network from Quebec City to Toronto (or even Windsor), and that network happens to be electrified as they say it would be, then that's a pretty big incentive to expand your electric network outward to Montreal, and Toronto to connect with those services. This would mostly apply to NY State, but could affect others as well. Similar to how state supported services can influence surrounding states.