Frequency of stops on the 20th Century Limited

I've been looking at several of the New York Central's old passenger timetables.

During the middle part of each run, the 20th Century Limited traveled for roughly 7 hours straight without making a single stop. It completely bypassed mid-sized industrial cities like Utica, Rochester, Buffalo, and Cleveland.

On the other hand, it did make stops at Waterloo, Elkhart, South Bend, LaPorte, Gary, and Englewood -- all within the space of about two hours. Anyone know why the stops were so frequent on the route's far western end? And so infrequent on the eastern?

Were the residents of Indiana simply. . . classier?

This particular train was all pullman for much of its time and even after
coaches were added, it was basically an east coast to Chicago or at least
Chicago area train.
Looking at the passenger timetable for October 27, 1957; the 20th Century shows as an all pullman train.
My timetable shows the only passenger stops for these two trains as:
New York, Harmon, Englewood and Chicago with an additional eastbound
only stop at Albany.
Steam engines were history by this time but the diesels had to be fueled
probably at Collingwood, Ohio. The steam generators had to get their
diet of water and in the cold winters of New York and the other states,
they could go through a lot of water for a train of that nature.
In the early 1960's, the train crews had agreements that provided for very
long crew runs, I remember Boston all the way to Buffalo for one example
but the engine crews at least to the best of my knowledge never did go
for runs of this extreme length. The engine crew got changed at Harmon
as a result of the engine change, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo and west of
Buffalo, I am not as sure but at least Collingwood, probably Toledo and
Elkhart but as I say, I am not sure. Erie was also at one time a crew
change for engine crews only but I think it had been done away with by
1957.
While the 20th Century was likely all roller bearing equipped in 1957, there were some trains that had at some head end cars with friction
bearings and these needed to be checked from time to time. I don't know
if hotbox detectors were in use in 1957 or not.
Interdivisional runs were not in general use in 1957 and it was not
customary for engineers to be qualified on the physical characteristics of
the railroad beyond their home district.
Today, many of the crew districts have changed and intermediate terminals have been eliminated or at least cut back, for example Syracuse
and Collingwood are by-passed by many freight and van trains so that an
engineer in Buffalo could be qualified as far west as Toledo or Willard, Ohio or as far east as Selkirk, New York.
Noel Weaver

As I recall from the late 50's, saw the Century stop for a crew change heading West in Syracuse.

Also, the Century would stop in Buffalo for fueling in both directions on tracks 23-26 which were the longest.

Buffalo was roughly halfway between Harmon and Chicago and therefore the chosen place to refuel as I recall.

I rode on it in July 66, and we stopped in Pittsburgh, I remember the molten steel cars glowing in the dark and a steel mill. We were there quite a while. We got on in Toledo. I can't remember how late we were, but it was several hours, due to a derailment near Ossining (Sing Sing), according to one of the waiters in the dining car. BTW, it was pretty pitiful at that point, one of the cars was flooded with water on one end, and reeked.

At least we didn't hit anything, like we did riding the B&O to Wash D.C a couple of years later. We hit a guy who went around the gates in Eastern Ohio, and his truck blew up. He was DOA, and our lead E-Unit was messed up enough that we had to go back to Willard, and wait and wait for a replacement. We got to D.C about 6 hours late. This train was much nicer than the 20th Century two years before.

"I rode on it in July 66, and we stopped in Pittsburgh,"

??? I'm sure I'm not the only one who was under the impression the 20th Century Limited did not go through Pittsburgh!!! I kinda thought it was a New York Central train that went from New York to Chicago through Buffalo, Cleveland, and so on. Are you sure you didn't see a steel mill in some other city while half asleep, and dream it was Pittsburgh?

Pittsburgh? Possibly Gary, Indiana... but certainly not Pittsburgh.

-otto-

Clarification: The timetables I've been looking at date from "the later years." And when I noted that the train didn't make a single stop for many hours, I was referring to passenger stops.

The October 1961 timetable (which appeared as the train was starting to circle the drain) does list Waterloo, Elkhart, South Bend, LaPorte, Gary, and Englewood as passengers stops. But even at that late date, the train was still skipping the industrial cities further east.

I presume that, even then, there were as many (if not more) Captains of Industry traveling to and from Cleveland as there were to Gary. Anyone have a theory as to why the railroad would skip one but not the other?

The reason the 20th Century Ltd didn't stop (for passengers at least) at big cities like Buffalo, Cleveland and Toledo was that it passed through in the middle of the night and very few passengers would want to get on or off at those times. Cleveland was served at more convenient times by the Cleveland Limited and other trains to New York, and by the Forest City or Chicagoan to Chicago. Buffalo had several trains. The stops in Indiana were at reasonable times in the morning and evening. While the train made several operating stops to change engine crews, these could be done quickly. Allowing passengers to board or leave at these points would have taken too much time and made the 15 1/2 or 16 hour schedule impossible, and made the train less competitive for its main market, passengers between the New York and Chicago areas.

Those steel mills were probably at Lackawanna, outside of Buffalo. I can remember riding the New York Central at night, and seeing those mills in action, all gone now, I think.
Also, as stated above, the Century was not making a crew change in Erie by the mid or late 50's. It used to fly through , pretty much at top speed!

The Century bypassed Cleveland Union Terminal in both directions and ran via the Lakefront. In days when timetables were big and fat, some other top trains used this route too.

Aji-tater wrote:"I rode on it in July 66, and we stopped in Pittsburgh,"

??? I'm sure I'm not the only one who was under the impression the 20th Century Limited did not go through Pittsburgh!!! I kinda thought it was a New York Central train that went from New York to Chicago through Buffalo, Cleveland, and so on. Are you sure you didn't see a steel mill in some other city while half asleep, and dream it was Pittsburgh?

My problem isn't remembering what happend, it's when, and I know it happened in July 66 as the friend that traveled with us was 6 months pregnant and almost didn't go because of it, and the kid was born on Dec 6, 1966. It's only one of two times I went to NYC, and the next time wasn't until I was almost 40, and I drove. I only traveled to the East by train twice, once to NY on the 20th, and once on the B&O to Wash. D.C a few years after that, 68 or 69, maybe 70. Mostly, we rode the NYC/PC to Chicago from Toledo and back.


I don't know if we were supposed to stop there in Pittsburgh or not, but we did, in the middle of the night, and we sat there for a long time. I've always been a night owl, even as a very tiny kid, and at 10 years old, in Late July, I was staying up to my natural bedtime, 5 am every day. Yes, school was a nightmare..

I don't think it was an unscheduled stop for some reason, I seem to remember reading it on some timetable, and it was definitely Pittsburgh, as my mom woke up as we were coming into the station and asked me where we were. There was a sign, Pittsburgh, PA as we stopped. There was a lot of activity in the station for it being so late, so maybe something was up. I remember a truck came up with ice and food for breakfast, and then the cherry red cars came by, and a few trains after that. I went to sleep after we passed Sing Sing. I remember seeing a convict look at us as we went by. It's funny how that stuff sticks with you..

I know it was the 20th century for a couple reasons, not only that I remember it. My mom says that it was the 20th and so did her friend that traveled with us. I had a couple of collectible items I...uh..borrowed. A pack of matches, an ashtray, and some kind of paper about 4" square with the 20th Century logo.. I still have the ashtray, I don't seem to be able to find the Matches and whatever the 4" square paper things are, I looked but can't seem to locate them. No, they aren't coasters or napkins, or writing paper. They are that "lovely" NYC/PC green with the 20th Cent logo in white. Hmmm, Ebay here I come, if I can find them!

I rode on it in July 66, and we stopped in Pittsburgh, I remember the molten steel cars glowing in the dark and a steel mill. We were there quite a while. We got on in Toledo. I can't remember how late we were, but it was several hours, due to a derailment near Ossining (Sing Sing), according to one of the waiters in the dining car.

Something about this just doesn't make sense, even if [for some odd reason the NYC had a reroute due to whatever] How do you get from Toledo to Pittsburg, and then to Ossining??? And the PC collectibles? IIRC PC wasn't formed until Feburary 1, 1968. I think you may have been on the Broadway Ltd?

Memory plays tricks on me sometimes, too -- especially from when I was 10 years old. The geography is definitely way out of kilter here.

But heck, if you want to believe you rode the Century through Pittsburgh, more power to you. And if you saw a convict at Sing Sing looking at you after you left Toledo (while going west still) then, well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I'm just glad it was a memorable trip. Really!

LCJ wrote:Memory plays tricks on me sometimes, too -- especially from when I was 10 years old. The geography is definitely way out of kilter here.

But heck, if you want to believe you rode the Century through Pittsburgh, more power to you. And if you saw a convict at Sing Sing looking at you after you left Toledo (while going west still) then, well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I'm just glad it was a memorable trip. Really!

I don't know where you came up with the going west at Sing Sing, we were obviously going East to NY. Toledo--Cleveland--Pittsburg--NYC??

I was talking to my mother, and she definetly remembers the Pittsburg stop too, and she was about 40 at the time, so there's no 10 year old space warping going on here. I guess we must have been diverted for some reason, maybe that's why we were so late. Anyways, it's no big deal.

CarterB wrote:

I rode on it in July 66, and we stopped in Pittsburgh, I remember the molten steel cars glowing in the dark and a steel mill. We were there quite a while. We got on in Toledo. I can't remember how late we were, but it was several hours, due to a derailment near Ossining (Sing Sing), according to one of the waiters in the dining car.

Something about this just doesn't make sense, even if [for some odd reason the NYC had a reroute due to whatever] How do you get from Toledo to Pittsburg, and then to Ossining??? And the PC collectibles? IIRC PC wasn't formed until Feburary 1, 1968. I think you may have been on the Broadway Ltd?

As I said in my other response, I don't know why we were in Pittsburgh, but my mother, her friend, her friend's daughter, and my sister, ALL remember it. As far as the reason for being late, that was what the waiter said, he may have been blowing smoke, who knows..

The collectibles weren't PC, I said the paper stuff was that "lovely PC/NYC green" It has the NYC logo on it, not PC( I have some PC stuff from Chicago trips later on). There are still boxcars and gondolas going through Toledo almost daily with the old NYC System logo and green paint showing through the flaking paint they threw on over it. I don't know how long that green was used prior to the merger, but it was done long enough for a lot of cars to be painted that color.