Floridian: Indianapolis-L'ville-Nashville-Birm-Jacksonville

I believe a Chicago-Florida restoration (notwithstanding whatever moritoria may be in effect at any given moment) is simply a non-happen. First, lest forget one route, the IC-GofG "City of Miami" has been truncated, and the surviving alternatives are "not exactly' for loss of freight traffic (lest we forget folks that is what 98% of railroading is all about).

From much experience over the years, I think I can safely state that even if a passenger train were to be "given the railroaqd" that train would not even come close to matching lawful and comfortable driving times from Chi to S. Fla. This is in complete contrast to the Atlantic Coast service which IS speed competitive with driving.

Secondly, now as a "veteran" of two trips in as many years, the existing Amtrak routings either by WAS or NOL are not all that inconvenient. The layovers in major cities are not that long to be a "can't we get going" event but not of a "will we make it' nail-biter. They also come at a convenient time of day when a short respite from the rails is welcomed.

It is a fact that there is little support for passenger rail through out much of the previously mentioned area. Seeing as how Amtrak's Floridian made it's last run 25 years ago, an entire generation has absolutely no recollection of what passenger service is like.(Not to say that the Floridian necessarily left a good impression)

There is of course the possibility of a Chicago-Cincinnatti-Atlanta-Florida routed train such as the PRR's "Southland"...........

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Secondly, now as a "veteran" of two trips in as many years, the existing Amtrak routings either by WAS or NOL are not all that inconvenient. The layovers in major cities are not that long to be a "can't we get going" event but not of a "will we make it' nail-biter. They also come at a convenient time of day when a short respite from the rails is welcomed.

A significant portion of the ridership on both the CHI-WAS (Capitol Ltd.) and CHI-NOL (City of New Orleans) routes consists of people connecting for Florida trains. Assuming a direct Chicago - Florida service were offered (most likely via one of the former L&N routes), it would obviously siphon ridership from those other trains, not to mention the Sunset Ltd. and Silver Star. This would most likely hurt their financial performance since most of the operating costs are fixed.

In other words, to succeed a direct Chicago - Florida train would have to generate enough cash flow, i.e. earnings before corporate overhead, depreciation and amortization, to make up for the losses for other trains. Alteratively, Amtrak would have to find a way to put fannies in those now-empty seats.

Well, Amtrak already has too much demand for the available capacity, at least in sleepers. When and if more equipment becomes available, the sleeping cars should be assigned where demand can be satisfied at minimal cost. If they can fill four sleepers on the Florida trains, or the transcontinentals, then thats where they should go, since the incremental operating cost per new available space is lower when sleepers are added to trains. (Based on my recent experience between New York and Savannah, in which both sleepers were completely full on the Meteor and the Star, I think four sleepers is entirely possible on both trains, with three on the Palm - the trains became booked several weeks before departure). Theoretically, however, if after the sleepers are all repaired and reassigned, Amtrak feels that capacity meets demand on the current route network, and there are a few left over, we might see new long-distance service in some parts of the country. I wouldn't bet the farm on it tho'.

The return of the Kentucky Cardinal to Louisville was much anticipated by the city. It is/was a shame that many people who had no recollection of how poor passenger service was when it left the city in 1979 quickly found out during a 12 hour trip to Chicago in coach.

I often feel sorry for Amtrak because in many cases their people are trying to do the best they can with what they have to work with. The problem is from the average traveling public's viewpoint all they see is poor service and a ridiculously long trip that could be done in a fraction of the time by car. Obviously, this turned off many of the people who were willing to give the Cardinal a try.

Without a doubt, there were other factors involved as well.

Will we ever see anything closely resembling the South Wind or South Land or Floridian again? Seems to be that it makes little to no sense at all for Chicago passengers to have to travel all the way to Washington to connect to a Silver Service train.

Your opinion(s)?

As one who rode the Pan American and Humming Bird many times when growing up, I would love to see a Chicago to Florida train via Louisville-Nashville- Chattanooga- Atlanta (old Georgian route). But, realistically CSX couldn't operate that on a reliable basis.

CNJ's suggestion of the Southland route would be best but I would use the NS line (Royal Palm) instead of old L&N for better performance. The route needs to serve Atlanta to tap that long ignored market then to Jax via Macon-Savannah to take advantage of the proposed commuter route to Macon and get back on fast track in Savannah.

I would not support any train though unless operated at least as good as the Empire Builder. We don't need any more Sorry Service trains to Florida (regarless of whether its Amtrak on the freight railroad's fault).

Since Autotrain covers its direct costs, perhaps the answer is make it an autotrain route reducing the need for station stops - maybe just Atlanta. This would avoid the expense (stations and staffing ) of intermediate stops for mininal revenue and additonal transit time required. When this was tried previoulsy as an Autotrain, the service was poor and Louisville was too far south for most midwesterners. A terminal in suburban Chicago might work and of course Sanford is already in place.

Again to better utilize a terminal perhaps a second train from Chicago might go to Denver. In both cases they would use equipment from existing LD trains that aren't cutting it. Good service or no service should be the rule. Another reason for making it an Autotrain, is that I think it has different work rules for the crew - no doubt a factor in helping it cover its cost.

Right now is not a good time to be even thinking about more Amtrak trains
for more financial losses, delays on a freight railroad and one engine trains that can't seem to get over the road worth a darn.
I would think a major change in leadership in Washington would have to
come first, then a comitment as to whether rail passenger service is to be
a major part of the public transportation network in the United States or
not.
The way things are going right now, we will be extremely lucky just to
keep what we have and at this point, I sometimes have my doubts about
that.

Noel Weaver

Alas, one of my favorite topics revisited. Thanks for the banter anyway, guys.

A few thoughts come to mind after reviewing Mr. Palmland's thoughtful posting:

palmland wrote:I would not support any train though unless operated at least as good as the Empire Builder. We don't need any more Sorry Service trains to Florida (regarless of whether its Amtrak on the freight railroad's fault).

Actually, the Floridian was a rather attractive train circa 1977, or some two years before its demise. I had a "bumper to bumper" CHI-TPA ride that November, and I found its ten car consist to be perfectly match Budd equipment mostly ex-SP. Bagg, Dorm, 2 each Sleepers Coaches and Domes plus Diner and Lounge made for a mighty pert consist that moved over the road on time (everywhere, not just at padded end points).

palmland wrote:Since Autotrain covers its direct costs, perhaps the answer is make it an autotrain route reducing the need for station stops - maybe just Atlanta. This would avoid the expense (stations and staffing ) of intermediate stops for mininal revenue and additonal transit time required. When this was tried previoulsy as an Autotrain, the service was poor and Louisville was too far south for most midwesterners. A terminal in suburban Chicago might work and of course Sanford is already in place.

Once again I throw out my oft repeated "Overnight is enough" caveat from fifteen AT journeys over the years. If the existing AT has not made destination by, say, noon 'arewethereyetitis' is quick to set in. AT's clientele is not comprised of railfans; it is not even comprised of 'train lovers' i.e. non fans but people who enjoy the relaxed LD train travel experience. It is (at least anytime I have ridden i.e. in season, in Sleeper) simply the Bennie-Caddy-Lex crowd"going down' for an extended visit such as "for the season' and for whom a rental concern's wind up toy is simply unacceptable.

Regarding the AT concept of locating the terminal away from the most major market in an area, i.e. Chicago for a Midwest proposal, Louisville is a "day's drive' not only from Chi, but also a host of other Midwest cities such as Indianapolis and St Louis. This is why one of the very few "think out of the box' types, namely Eugene K Garfield, to come near passenger railroading chose to locate the AT terminal near Wash rather than, say, in its largest market of New York.

Mr. Norman, I appreciate you reminding me of how good the old AT was and it would be great if it returned to Louisville. But I think it would be tough to have CSX provide an on time operation. How about using a portion of the old DeCoursey yard outside Cincinati for a terminal, if space is still available?

Cincinnati is arguably better located from an Interstate standpoint to the Midwest than Louisville and would avoid the bottleneck of CUT trackage. The running time of the old Royal Palm from Cincinnati to Jacksonville was 22 hours. This included over 2 hours of dwell time at various stations. Add another 2.5 hours to Sanford and an 11am departure would have you in the southland before noon the next day.

Maybe the Lorton terminal was a good idea when the original Auto Train
started up way back when but today, it costs Amtrak a lot of business on
this particular run. There are a lot of people in my condo and other
places all over Florida who do not mind the ride up to Sanford one bit but
once they get off at Lorton, they are dumped into one of the worst
"bottlenecks" anywhere.
The present Auto Train would do much better if they had a northern
terminal at least north of Baltimore and probably someplace in New
Jersey. The present equipment will not likely fit on Amtrak through the
Baltimore tunnels but it might on the CSX freight route. The northern
terminal should be in an area where there are decent highway connections
and it accessible to a decent rail line as well. It would also need enough
property to construct a yard, terminal, loads of parking and facilities to
service both locomotives and cars. I can't really think of an ideal location
at the present time to accomplish this although I suspect that there may
be someplace in either New Jersey or Pennsylvania where this could be
done. A train of this nature would have to run NONSTOP over the
entire route except for crew changes or to service the equipment, no
switching of cars and no passengers on or off at any intermediate point.
Even if the northern terminal was in the Harrisburg area, it would still be
reasonably accessible to the northeast and Harrisburg is not a bad drive
from most major cities.
As I mentioned earlier, a lot of potential customers write off the Auto
Train as a way to travel north simply because they still have to drive
through the worst part of the trip, namely the Washington, DC area and
the state of New Jersey. On the trip from the north to the south, New
Jersey is the worst state of them all to get through, believe me on this
one as I have done it many times. From New England, Connecticut is
just about as bad as New Jersey and maybe even worse and is considered
an area to avoid too.
Noel Weaver

Our moderator Otto Vondrak seems to be asking about "how it was in the old days" and why the train was discontinued. Let me provide a little history:

1) Immediately prior to Amtrak, IC and L&N both operated Chicago-Florida trains. IC ran their train to Birmingham on their own railroad. It then continued to Waycross on Central of GA, thence Jax and south on SCL. The L&N train ran PC to Louisville, L&N to Birmingham, and then a former ACL line Birmingham to Waycross, thence south. Each train operated every other day. Between the two, they provided daily service.

2) Amtrak had to choose one route. They picked the L&N/ACL route. North of Louisville, the train ran to Indianapolis, thence to Kankakee over the PC, and IC from there to Central Station in Chicago. This way, the Chicago -- Indianapolis route was shared by two trains, the James Whitcomb Riley and Floridian (Amtrak's name for the service).


3) By about 1974, the Kankakee-Lafayette route had deteriorated to the point that Amtrak started looking for alternatives. Various things were tried. The Floridian spent the summer of 1974 running over the C&EI to Evansville, thence to Nashville and south (although this was never in the timetable). The Riley wandered from route to route. Eventually the Riley ended up on the C&O of Indiana (where it remained into the early 1980s), missing all Indiana points of any importance whatsoever. The Floridian finally ended up on the Monon, missing Indianapolis.

4) During this same period, Gene Garfield's Auto-Train started a Louisville -- Florida service, out of a station south of Louisville. This originally ran as a separate train, but due to derailments and other problems, eventually was consolidated with the Floridian (which also used Auto-Train's station) south of Louisville. This lasted until Auto-Train eliminated the Louisville service.

5) At some point after Auto-Train gave up, Amtrak changed from a two-day, one-night schedule to a two-night, one-and-a-half day schedule due to longer running times. This schedule wouldn't have worked for Auto-Train.

6) In 1980, the Carter administration ordered Amtrak to reduce its losses. Trains that were considered duplicative, or were poor performers, were cut as of January 1981. These included:

- National Limited (NY - Kansas City)
- Floridian
- Texas Chief (Chicago - Houston, duplicated some of the Texas Eagle service)
- North Coast Hiawatha (Chicago - Seattle tri-weekly via ex-NP, mostly)

And that's how it's been, the last 25 years. Of course other cuts have been made, notably in 1996.

Noel Weaver wrote:The present Auto Train would do much better if they had a northern terminal at least north of Baltimore and probably someplace in New Jersey. The present equipment will not likely fit on Amtrak through the Baltimore tunnels but it might on the CSX freight route. The northern terminal should be in an area where there are decent highway connections and it accessible to a decent rail line as well. It would also need enough property to construct a yard, terminal, loads of parking and facilities toservice both locomotives and cars. I can't really think of an ideal locationat the present time to accomplish this although I suspect that there may be someplace in either New Jersey or Pennsylvania where this could be done.

I have seen from time to tome some suggestions that an Auto Train facility be placed on the site of the former General Motors Assembly Plant in Linden NJ. The only problem I see is how would that train get from Linden to CSX trackage for the run south? I would also agree with Mr. Weaver, in that the Auto Train would not be able to run over the NEC due to clearance issues. So all in all there would be logistics issues to contend with, but it could possibly be done.