first ESA pictures in GCT's caverns

ESA pictures of alteration of part of lower level and new train caverns under lower level.
The track you see is original lower level track, used to haul out the construction debris.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20101290337

Below Grand Central, a new station forms
By Ken Valenti • January 29, 2010
Heavy machines gouge away at a Manhattan schist, carving out a brand-new station below Grand Central Terminal and Midtown. The space is raw, like something from a sci-fi horror flick, a massive warren of dirt, mud, dust, raw concrete and crawling machinery. "When you come down here in 2017, this is where you're going to be walking," said program manager Andrew Thompson, showing off an area that in several years will be a new concourse.

Great article.

Does anyone know the challenges that stopped them from merging the tunnel with the existing track so that trains could arrive at the existing levels of GCT?

Great article.

Does anyone know the challenges that stopped them from merging the tunnel with the existing track so that trains could arrive at the existing levels of GCT?

FRN9 wrote:Does anyone know the challenges that stopped them from merging the tunnel with the existing track so that trains could arrive at the existing levels of GCT?

Incompatible third rails.

mkm4 wrote:

FRN9 wrote:Does anyone know the challenges that stopped them from merging the tunnel with the existing track so that trains could arrive at the existing levels of GCT?

Incompatible third rails.

Also I think the grade from the existing 63rd Street tunnel up to the Park Ave. tracks would be too steep. The F train station at 63rd & Lex is way down there-- as I recall you take 2 or 3 escalators to get to track level-- and the tunnel the LIRR will use is at the same level, if not deeper.

In addition, you'd have major issues w building foundations if you were trying to come up to existing track level from 63rd/Lex. That's aside from the hellatiously complicated interlocking you'd have to created if you were trying to funnel a new line in basically right at the throat of the GCT yard.

Ridgefielder wrote: Also I think the grade from the existing 63rd Street tunnel up to the Park Ave. tracks would be too steep. The F train station at 63rd & Lex is way down there-- as I recall you take 2 or 3 escalators to get to track level-- and the tunnel the LIRR will use is at the same level, if not deeper.

Am I hallucinating or did they recently change the route of the F? I remember picking up either the F or the E at 53rd and Lex, now it's the E and V. Regardless, both stops are way down there. I remember taking the really long escalator ride down to the platform.

Ridgefielder wrote: In addition, you'd have major issues w building foundations if you were trying to come up to existing track level from 63rd/Lex. That's aside from the hellatiously complicated interlocking you'd have to created if you were trying to funnel a new line in basically right at the throat of the GCT yard.

Not to mention the turn it would have to make to just have the trains facing the right direction.

This issue -- somehow routing the LIRR trains into existing GCT tracks -- has been discussed at length not only here but in the news. The main reason against it is a simple one, I think, no room.

There was even a study done a while back by some (self-appointed) consultant who purported to have ascertained if the Metro-North signal system was upgraded it WOULD be possible to rout the LIRR into GCT's lower or upper level. That's hard to believe, though.

Way back in the late 1960s, when the 63d Street tunnel was first proposed, the MTA planned an entirely new LIRR terminal on 3rd Avenue near 42d Street. That would've been pretty cool I think, but fell through for lack of $$$

Btw, those are some nice pix in Dutch's link. But every time I get up to about 12 of 20 my browser locks up.

awtprod wrote:Am I hallucinating or did they recently change the route of the F? I remember picking up either the F or the E at 53rd and Lex, now it's the E and V.

That was changed like a decade ago.

Tommy Meehan wrote:This issue -- somehow routing the LIRR trains into existing GCT tracks -- has been discussed at length not only here but in the news. The main reason against it is a simple one, I think, no room.

There was even a study done a while back by some (self-appointed) consultant who purported to have ascertained if the Metro-North signal system was upgraded it WOULD be possible to rout the LIRR into GCT's lower or upper level. That's hard to believe, though.

Way back in the late 1960s, when the 63d Street tunnel was first proposed, the MTA planned an entirely new LIRR terminal on 3rd Avenue near 42d Street. That would've been pretty cool I think, but fell through for lack of $$$

Btw, those are some nice pix in Dutch's link. But every time I get up to about 12 of 20 my browser locks up.

As I too learned on here when I mentioned GCT was "underutilized" as to trains from any potential TZB service going into GCT and quickly got hammered, er, corrected. It's not the number of platforms or tracks in GCT (as opposed to PSNY) as I understand, it's the bottleneck of the Park Avenue viaduct and tunnel, plus GCT being a "terminal", i.e. end station, and not a "through" station (although some trains end there, they are shuffled out to yard at either end and don't necessarily need to be turned).

I do remember something about a terminal on the east side on third, but I thought it was supposed to be near the Q'Boro bridge (or perhaps the JFK Airtrain original proposal?). I think I remember something about a possible MNRR terminal on the West Side as well, whether at 34th (scuttled thanks to NJT's deep cavern end terminal stupid proposal) or 42nd, or even the old NYC rail yards (also no longer a possibility). This obviates the capacity issue at Penn by creating a separate station, but hurts connectivity, of course. And it does nothing for Harlem (hopeless situation) or New Haven for access to Penn. I think the big issue is downtown access, for both LI and Westchester.

Is the MNRR third rail system (under-running) unique, i.e. are most other DC systems over-running?

Sarge wrote: Is the MNRR third rail system (under-running) unique, i.e. are most other DC systems over-running?

it's the less common of the two, and in the US, AFAIK, the Market-Frankford line is the only other, but it's not unheard of. I think some U-bahn and maybe S-Bahn (what third rail ones there are) lines in Germany use it.

Most European systems are under running third rail.

Does anyone know the challenges that stopped them from merging the tunnel with the existing track so that trains could arrive at the existing levels of GCT?

*********

It is my understanding that main reason to create a LIRR terminal under GCT was the difficulty in underpinning the tracks. The original plan had the new LIRR tracks head west from the 63rd Street tunnel, fly under the GCT tracks from east to west, to connect up to the lower level tracks on the west side of GCT. The logistics of underpinning tracks that are in use 24 hours a day were deemed insurmountable/too costly. Also, there was concern about the integration of LIRR space with MNRR space.

During the planning stage, a light bulb went off -- fly under of the main tracks a little deeper, don't come back up to the GCT level...keep going straight under GCT. Solves the issue with the underpinning as well as LIRR using space in GCT.

I wouldn't be surprised if the layout of ESA influenced the decision to deep tunnel the new NJ Transit terminal @ 34th St.

It also solved the problem of where to create the LIRR terminal waiting room and ticket area.
which will now be on the lower level where old madison coach shops ones where.

Boston had it's "Big Dig". NY has "The Pit". Hope its worth the mega billions it will wind up costing just to bring LIRR passengers to GCT.

the issue is not GCT, but the Manhatan connection for 1/3th of all LIRR passengers.