Fare Evaders/Free Rides

However, the bottom line is that if a rule can not be enforced against all it should not be enforced against anyone and needs to be changed.

I agree, they need to make either everyone pay or nobody pay. I can imagine these conductors asking me for a step up fare and I pay it, then they walk away thinking "sucker!". So next time I take the train from New York when my pass says Newark should I tell the guy that I'm not paying the extra fare?

I can imagine these conductors asking me for a step up fare and I pay it, then they walk away thinking "sucker!".

That couldn't be further from the truth. I am actually grateful and at times "amazed" when people pay a step up or penalty without making snide remarks, stupid comments, or any negative things. What actually does happen is when we walk away from someone who does not pay a correct fare, we think words that can't be printed here!

Maybe JT or somebody knows the answer to this:

What is the protocol for dealing with and possibly removing a passenger in a fare dispute? Not too long ago, I had a ticket I wanted to step up, but the collector said I could not use the ticket, and would have to buy a new ticket AND pay the $5 surcharge, for total of more than $20. The collector was simply dead wrong and refused even to listen as I tried to explain what I was talking about. Fortunately the conductor made a timely appearance from the other direction, and quickly resolved the issue.

My question is, at what point can/should a conductor have a passenger removed from a train for non-payment? In this case, I presented a ticket I believed to be valid, which turned turned out to be the case, and at no point did I become belligerent (although the same could not be said for the collector). If the issue had to be pressed, I'm sure I would have simply paid it, as I did want to get home that night (and I am, after all, one of those people on this site who has repeatedly said aboard the train, the conductor rules), but I certainly would have made a stink afterward in pursuit of my 21 bucks. But had I pressed the matter, how far could that have gone assuming I did not pose any kind of threat? And if I was tossed from the train, and later demonstrated that I had a valid ticket, what would have happened (aside from the threat of litigation)?

One more question: Can a conductor actually order somebody off a train or do the police have to carry out the actual ejection? I am guessing a conductor is not encouraged to get into a physical brawl with a passenger over a fare dispute if that passenger is not posing any threat other than depriving the railroad of a couple bucks. I have heard that a passenger can only be removed at a station where there is railroad personnel on duty or police present, true? (Again, I am not talking about people posing a iminent threat to the conductor and other passengers.)

From what I have seen on this thread, it sounds generally like conductors are encouraged to avoid making a dispute over a couple dollars into a big deal, in which the actions of the on-board employees could open up the railroad to some serious liability. Cool heads and commons sense seem to prevail.

Just askin'...

There are a few trainmen out there who seem to go out of their way to make us all look bad. They either don't know the proper procedures, or they just like to take advantage of passngers for their own "enjoyment". Even though we are told that "the customer is always right", and to treat everybody courteously and with respect, that can be extremely difficult when the customer acts belligerent and/or speaks down to us. However, it really burns me up when a trainman treats a well mannered and polite customer like garbage.

An interesting story: About 2½ years ago on an eastbound morning rush hour Corridor train, a passenger got on at Metropark (Zone 10) and was headed to New York. He showed the trainman (a 3 year 'veteran') a "Plainfield to New York Penn" monthly. Plainfield is Zone 11, which is identical to Metuchen, so he was good to go. However, the trainman would not accept the pass, claiming it was not good on the Corridor. (In class we were taught that we can cross-honor passes or tickets as long as the zones are equal or greater than the ride taken.) The passenger nicely said that he'd done it many times before (he lived in Plainfield, but had a girlfriend or something near Metropark), and he was told in the past that it was valid. The trainman disagreed, and requested either a "valid" fare or for him to exit the train. Another trainmen (not the conductor) overheard the commotion and pulled the first trainman into the vestibule to speak in private. The second trainman informed the other that the passenger was correct, the pass was indeed valid. The first trainman still disagreed, and now they were coming up to Linden. When the doors opened, a police officer happened to be standing on the platform, so he was aked to remove the passenger. All this was unbeknownst to the conductor up front, since a "29" was never called, this was all happening in the 4th or 5th car, and the first trainmen never alerted him.

Anyway, it turned out that the original train with the "disagreement" got delayed for some reason in Newark, and the original passenger who was denied passage ended up on a following train which arrived in New York before the original one. The passenger went straight to the trainmaster's office in New York to report the situation. When the accused trainman arrived in New York a few minutes later, he was greeted by the trainmaster. Unfortunately, I wish I can say that the trainman was disciplined or worse, but all I heard was that the conductor got reprimanded for not being aware of the situation (conductors have to be mind readers!), and that was it. I heard that to this day, the incorrect trainman thinks he was right!

Idiot says he wasn't a threat, but what would the collector have said? I would have paid the $21 and got a receipt if it looked like I was about to get thrown off the train.
The bigger problem is what the crew members here have said, the NJT wont back their crews in throwing passengers off trains. I'm sure that in certain circles this is well known. Not only does this stupid policy cost njt money, but it undermines respect for crews and, for that matter, the rule of law. If crews were backed when they removed non-paying people, the number who tried one excuse or another would decrease sharply. I don't advocate a completely hard line--it should be up to the crew's discretion. The point is, if a trainman feels he is being hustled, he probably is, and he should make an example of the hustler. The word would get around.

rants



...there is a great deal of liability in enforcing the fare rule, especially in cases where the customer may have tried to buy a ticket but experienced "x" complications...

In an ideal world the best solution is the one that prevents non-fare paying customers from boarding...because once the person is on board the train...and does not pay the fare (infraction) and is later removed at another location against the wishes of the evader (penalty) the railroad might be open to more liabilty....especially if is found that a crew member was misinformed, biased, or worse in what amounts to a penalty or punishment without due process...

...the loss of revenue for the one customer is not nearly as bad as the potential legal fees should the dispute end up in litigation...

...giving railcrews psuedo police powers is not very effective....just ask a Light Rail fare inspector...who more often than not is flanked by one of the more imposing examples of NJT police when issuing a warning...

...as for the lazy folks i've read about in the earlier posts...well....they are no worse than the other fare evaders i've seen who are just as bad save for their lack of laziness...they will make the effort to buy that one-way ticket for the crowded NEC trains becuase they know that it probably won't be collected...they play the system and do it quite well...stealing is stealing with or without finesse...a true honest Abe would hand his ticket to the rail crew upon exiting the train

...the fare collection system will change when the cost of fare evaders forces a change...take the POP method on light rail for example...it may seem like a absurd system to some, but it has saved NJT a lot of money...they gain more by using this method than the marginal loss from fare evaders...fare gates, barriers, and the necessary HBLRT redesign would cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

...if delays from fare evaders and revenue loss from fare evaders becomes a serious enough problem, fare gates will go up on the NEC for sure (Secuacus and the Newark Airport Rail Station are a sign of a not too distant future...think MetroRail it is fare controlled AND ZONED !!! and they have Smart Cards) if NYCT did it eons ago NJT can do it in future (ON THE NEC ONLY---FOR NOW) ....then of course railcrews will complain about that too...

i would not mind a faregate system and brand new EMU's on the NEC...
:D

The Conductor is supposed to be the one who makes the call of any kind of dispute wiht a passenger, fare or otherwise. Any trainman can "pursuade" a person off a train, by either walking and getting in front of them and making them take steps back and eventually off the train or telling the person "lets stand outside so we can talk and away form the passegners" then they would discuss the situation and if it didn't go well, the trainman steps on the train and closes the door quickly!!!! This doesn't work real well with C5's though, MU"s are the best.

People are put off all the time, for various reasons various ways. Sometimes if you tell a person to get off or im gonna call the cops, they simply get off at the next stop, and the cops are never called and they just wait for the next one. Sometimes you pretend you called the cops, and tell the person "i see and was told the cop car is coming up the street now" or talk into your radio, but not actually transmit, etc, then they usually take off, when in reality, there was no cop ever called. Again, its a cat and mouse game, usually played with deadbeats who have nothing better to do and the amount of times they sneak on the train for free more than makes up for the chance of getting caught. But as trainmen, we are truely on our own out there, and can't rely on the police, NJT or local, and we HAVE to stick together for our own safety and the safety of our passegners.

With IR's situation, you should have requested the conductor right off the bat when you saw things were going downhill with you and the trainman. Its supposed to be the conductors call on all fare disputes, but most are able to be taken care of by the trainmen, only when there is a problem devleoping does/should the conductor get involved (unless your dealing with the conductor - that could be a sticky situaiton) There are many times when I have been called in to resolve disputes between trainmen and passengers, and often times is a simple matter of misunderstanding, either on the passenger's or trainman's part, and when the correct info is given, things usually settle down. But of course, not always. Then if the passenger starts to get loud with the conductor and piss him off, well you're more than lkely going to be put off at the next stop, with or without the police assistance.

But having a fare dispute and calling the police because of a fare dispute is the LAST thing NJT management want to hear, and you will be called on the carpet for it. The conductor will be yelled at probably by a few different bosses and if its on Amtrak, they like to chime in too.

The rules are there, and trainmen are hired to enforce them. But there is a delicate line that needs to be walked on the part of the trianman, in collecting and enforcing the rules (charging the penalty, step ups, etc) where they make the revenue people happy in collecting all the fares that should be paid, and make the "customer service" people happy, and resolve disputes so that the "customer is always right" metality. Right now at NJT, the mindset is the "customer is always right" so we tend to err on the side of caution and click and say thank you when things get a litlte hairy. Becuase all that person has to do is write a letter with the trainman's badge number and even if everything in the letter is false and never happened, the trainman has that mark against him and will get into trouble. So in essence, the trainman would get into trouble for doing his job. Sounds crazy, right? Well, thats the railroad. Guilty until proven "innocent".......(and I use that term lightly)

Arrow, i wouldn't recommend getting on and saying your not paying. That will not turn out good. Two wrongs DON'T make a right. It may seem like a large number of people "get over" on trainmen and get out of paying hte step up or penalty or whatever, but in reality, its not, its a very small percentage of people encountered on a train or over the course of a day.

Now, on trains where the revenue simply isn't gotten around to until after some people have already gotten off, thats an NJT management problem with not putting enough people on the trains and a whole other subject. stealing is stealing, as someone above said, and in the end, everyone will pay because fares will have to increase sooner rather than later, or equipment won't be fixed as good as it could have and trains break down or whatever service dispution you want to insert here.

I remember several years ago I was traveling from Millburn to Hoboken with a friend of mine who lived at school. I was going to school with him to work on some stuff and got on the train and showed my Millburn to Hoboken STUDENT monthly pass (I commuted to school every day back when I took the train from there). The conductor right away gave me this look (like I always got when I tried to use the ticket on a weekend) and said to me, "you guys aren't going to school". All I could get out of my mouth was "well..." and he said "one way or round trip". He must have said that about 15 times. Every time I'd try to give my side of the story he'd just ignore it and say "one way or round trip." Finally I started getting mad and told him I'm not paying because I had already had a ticket. He told me that I had one last chance to pay or I was to be thrown off the train at the next stop. Of course everyone in the car was staring by this point -- very embarassing!

Eventually, another train crew member came into our car (I don't remember if he was the conductor and the guy I'd been dealing with was the assistant conductor or the other way around). The other guy pulled him aside and they talked about something in private. He then came back to me and told me he'll let me go this time but (and this is an EXACT quote), "don't ever get on my train again.". By this point I was furious but I didn't say a word to him.

If it wasn't a Sunday I would have been fuming into the customer service office in Hoboken. Instead, I sent an email telling NJT which train I was on and what happened. They told me that it was perfectly acceptable to use student monthly passes on the weekend providing you are going to school and that they would "re-educate the trainmen on that line on the proper use of a student monthly pass". I never saw that guy again.

I pay my fare and I don't expect to be treated like garbage. While obviously this case is a minority (most people I run across are respectful and nice as am I to them) it still gets me mad when I think about it.

School passes on the Erie-Lackawanna had many restrictions on them, as I recall. Couldn't use them after 7pm during the week, or on Saturday or Sunday, etc.

I think context also makes a difference. If I was confronting one kid about his fare, that's OK. If I have 4-5 crackheads at 11 at night, coming back from a concert, that's a different issue

perhaps a good way to prevent people from reusing their tickets when they have not been collected is to use time stamps like the trains in europe use.

once a ticket is stamped, it is only good for a couple hours. it would ensure that the fare would be paid for every ride. also, on lines where there are no tvm-s, the train conductor would have to carry a portable time stamping machine.

I'm sorry, but my memory is faltering... Someone have a picture of the strips that were used way back then?

Well, if the entire NJT system was POP, then there wouldn't be a need for conductors, since the valid ticket 'speaks' for itself. There would only be a need for fare enforcement officials (like those littered randomly around the HBLR), which I think would be much harder to maintain in a big RR system.

Lackawanna484 wrote:School passes on the Erie-Lackawanna had many restrictions on them, as I recall. Couldn't use them after 7pm during the week, or on Saturday or Sunday, etc.

NJT passes don't have such restrictions. I was told they were valid any day and any time as long as you were traveling to or from school for any reason.

I've encountered a few trainmen who were sure they were right- but I knew otherwise. I was able to convince some of them, but to others, I had to give into them to avoid a conflict.

And yes, there are a few (not many at all) bad apples who will try to make you feel like garbage if they feel like you should.

Update: This morning someone tried to get away with not paying the $5 penalty even though there were many TVMs and the ticket office at the station was open. The passenger of course put up a fight but the conductor won out. The conductor stood his ground and said everyone else had to pay it so you do too. He told the passenger to take the receipt and bring it to customer service if he has a problem. I think he handled the situation professionaly.