• Ethan Allen Discussion, including Expansion (Burlington)

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Noel Weaver wrote:I still don't think there will be any extension of the existing Rutland trains to Burlington UNTIL they are able to run via North Bennington. I doubt very much if it would be practical to turn a train of passengers on the wye at Rutland and it would cost a lot of time as well. If and when the service runs via North Bennington then it would be very practical and relatively easy to run the train right through to Burlington and this I would love to see happen.
Noel Weaver
You'd be wrong, because that is exactly the plan and has been all along with sign-off from all required stakeholders.


They are treating the reverse move as only a temporary thing, but Phase II and the Bennington re-route are going to take a good 7-10 years to get going because the southern half of the Western Corridor is a lot more intensive an upgrade than the northern half. VTrans and Amtrak will put up with this inefficiency in Rutland because there's no other way such a small state can stage the job except Rutland-Burlington and Hoosick Jct.-Rutland as discrete halves under separate funding commitments in separate decades. The only practical means to an eventual goal of full cross-state service requires a non-optional interregnum period of reversing at Rutland. As long as Phase II doesn't get shelved or significantly pushed out, they can deal with that.
  by Greg Moore
 
I could have sworn about a decade ago they had done a bunch of upgrades for the North Bennington reroute and then nothing happened. Am I completely misremembering?

(As for Bennington proper, that's never getting rail service again unfortunately.)
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Upper half of the W. Corridor is the more substantial one for freight. Most of VRS's freight traffic runs east-west from Whitehall to Rutland, then distributes at Rutland to all points on the compass. Largest share keeps going east to Bellows Falls for the NECR and PAS interchanges, and for haulage to VRS's isolated Washington County sub on the upper Conn River Line. Next-highest share goes up the Western Corridor to Burlington where population density and local biz is simply higher. And then the lower W. Corridor has a relatively small share in part because of longstanding Pan Am disinterest in that interchange vs. the one at Bellows Falls, and the much lower density vs. the upper half of the line. Traffic patterns are starting to change now that Norfolk Southern is sinking its teeth further into New England and picking up all of CP's south-of-Albany holdings, but the south half is a bit behind the north half in track maint and track class. VRS takes good care of all of its lines, but they apportion accordingly.

What'll help a lot is that the timing of Phase II dovetails neatly with NS digesting its recent acquisitions and its eventual buyout of Pan Am's 50% share of the Pan Am Southern venture so they control 100% of that route and make their major push for competitive parity with CSX in New England. Then you'll see the traffic levels through Hoosick Jct. start swelling to the point where it reshapes freight patterns on VRS's network through NS's gravity. Which also solves the issue of how to upgrade Mechanicville-Hoosick Jct., since NS is likely to self-fund Class 3 running speeds on the PAS main once it boots its weaker partner Pan Am out of the picture. VTrans will be able to make a pretty solid case to the Feds for upgrade grants on the south half in large part because of the demands the NS effect will make for renewed south-of-Rutland infrastructure, 286K, CWR, better running speeds, etc. And since VT started investing a lot earlier than its neighbors in state-funded freight projects it isn't spread too thin by a backlog and should be able to go for it with decent odds of success so long as political winds don't reverse. But the timing for that sale job on funding is 5 years from now: after the north-half is finished and EAE extended, and after NS's next 2 or 3 chess moves pull PAS completely in-house with upgrade plans for bona fide CSX parity. Even if VTrans had the means to multitask, it would still be better for them to wait and sync up their push with NS's to maximize their funding chances. So that also has to be considered here: what if the half-decade of Rutland reverse awkwardness is necessary because that's precisely what increases their funding leverage the most (i.e. building the Burlington ridership AND waiting out the more favorable freight conditions around the corner reshaping the gravitational pull at Hoosick Jct.). There's good reason for them being locktight consistent about order of priority for these two EAE phases, and why one is being fast-tracked while one isn't.
  by Ridgefielder
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:
Noel Weaver wrote:I still don't think there will be any extension of the existing Rutland trains to Burlington UNTIL they are able to run via North Bennington. I doubt very much if it would be practical to turn a train of passengers on the wye at Rutland and it would cost a lot of time as well. If and when the service runs via North Bennington then it would be very practical and relatively easy to run the train right through to Burlington and this I would love to see happen.
Noel Weaver
You'd be wrong, because that is exactly the plan and has been all along with sign-off from all required stakeholders.


They are treating the reverse move as only a temporary thing, but Phase II and the Bennington re-route are going to take a good 7-10 years to get going because the southern half of the Western Corridor is a lot more intensive an upgrade than the northern half. VTrans and Amtrak will put up with this inefficiency in Rutland because there's no other way such a small state can stage the job except Rutland-Burlington and Hoosick Jct.-Rutland as discrete halves under separate funding commitments in separate decades. The only practical means to an eventual goal of full cross-state service requires a non-optional interregnum period of reversing at Rutland. As long as Phase II doesn't get shelved or significantly pushed out, they can deal with that.
Is the plan to turn the train on the wye, or run with a cab car and/or two engines and change ends in the station at Rutland (like the Vermonter did at Palmer up until this year)?
  by Allouette
 
By far the most likely scenario is the use of a locomotive on each end. It deals with having to change ends at Rutland and the lack of a turning facility in Burlington in one stroke. There's even the added bonus that a route via Mechanicville and Bennington could be implemented while waiting for the connecting track that would be required for direct travel. The downside is that the P32DMAC pool is stretched thin. If a cab car were used, running cab car first from Rutland to Burlington would require an engine change in ALB on the way to New York, since leading with ex-metroliner cab cars is, or at least used to be, prohibited in and near Penn Station.
  by Hawaiitiki
 
Forgive me, I'm somewhat new to this thread but I follow the Vermonter/Montrealer one pretty closely. It seems like its assumed that the Vermonter is going to return to Montreal relatively soon after Customs situation shakes out in Gare Centrale.

Would it not make sense to also have a goal to finish the Ethan Allen in Montreal after the Burlington/Essex Junction area so as to not have maintain a Northern Vermont turning facility soon after the Vermonter no longer has St Albans as a terminal. Would the trip times be overly excessive? Lack of demand? I know that Gare Centrale has some excess platform capacity.

I get this is all theoretical but it seems like speed increases on the Vermonter and a push for Montreal service are seemingly becoming a glimpse of hope of improved services in Northeastern USA.
  by JimBoylan
 
Allouette wrote:running cab car first from Rutland to Burlington would require an engine change in ALB on the way to New York, since leading with ex-metroliner cab cars is, or at least used to be, prohibited in and near Penn Station.
Keystone trains from Harrisburg, Pa. get away with leading with ex-Metroliner cab cars in and near Penn Station, New York.
  by Safetee
 
I believe that several years ago when folks were hot for a manchester to new york ski train service, vt dot using rj corman as the contractor rebuilt from the north side of arlington down to hoosick junction or there abouts with welded rail 127 DY or similar. I think that from north side arlington to rutland is all old rutland railway original stick rail with lots of cinder ballast,and not an overdose of good wood.,
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Hawaiitiki wrote:Forgive me, I'm somewhat new to this thread but I follow the Vermonter/Montrealer one pretty closely. It seems like its assumed that the Vermonter is going to return to Montreal relatively soon after Customs situation shakes out in Gare Centrale.

Would it not make sense to also have a goal to finish the Ethan Allen in Montreal after the Burlington/Essex Junction area so as to not have maintain a Northern Vermont turning facility soon after the Vermonter no longer has St Albans as a terminal. Would the trip times be overly excessive? Lack of demand? I know that Gare Centrale has some excess platform capacity.

I get this is all theoretical but it seems like speed increases on the Vermonter and a push for Montreal service are seemingly becoming a glimpse of hope of improved services in Northeastern USA.
Very unlikely the EAE ends up in Montreal on a single seat. However, thru-routing past downtown Burlington to Essex Jct. has been an idea tossed about since Essex Jct. can at peak commute hours be less of a traffic hassle for reaching I-89 and the airport than the downtown Burlington stop. It's out-of-scope for the current project which obviously prioritizes just getting to Burlington in the first place. But NECR's branch off Essex Jct. to Burlington, while in pretty poor shape, is a short one at 6 miles so that's a plausible reach. To put Montreal on the map for Vermont residents living along the western edge of the state there'd probably have to be a second Vermonter frequency that an EAE schedule could hit at Essex Jct. for a transfer...also a plausible future scenario.
  by TrainPhotos
 
Are there any maps indicating service route, proposed stops, etc?
  by Rockingham Racer
 
The town of Middlebury has become oppositional to this project, hasn't it?
  by Noel Weaver
 
Rockingham Racer wrote:The town of Middlebury has become oppositional to this project, hasn't it?
That's strange because Middlebury would stand to gain big time with the college there, students are a big user of passenger trains and buses too.
Noel Weaver
  by Rockingham Racer
 
I thought it strange too because of the college in town. Maybe I dreamed about the opposition in Middlebury?
  by Greg Moore
 
Middlebury is a very... traditional town.

I can sort of see the opposition among the residents.

The students I suspect would love it.
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