EL Fans Rejoice! The Erie Lackawanna Lives!

Sullivan 1985 two points.

I see the branch you're talking about but the problem is that in 1976 that was a Penn Central branch that because part of Conrail. It also doesn't really fit the Erie Lackawanna picture.

If the EL stayed out of Conrail, they would have still used their trackage rights over the NYC Corning to Williamsport secondary, trackage rights they used from the construction of the Corning to Newberry Jct. Pa trackage up to the creation of Conrail, yes they used them under PC. I'm just suggesting giving the Reading to the still solvent E-L not to Conrail, both to strengthen E-L and add some competition to the eastern PA sand outhern NJ RR scene.


Given that Conrail didn't get anything from E-L they would need the NYC Williamsport to Lyons connection for the traffic that existed at the time. CR was able to abandon the NYC lines because they had the Binghamton to Scranton line from E-L which they wouldn't have had under your scenario. Only the Lyons to Newberry Jct. Pa through Williamsport could connect the old Harrisburg Pa thru Northumberland traffic to the NYC mainline for Conrail's existence since it has no connections east of there any more for this traffic.


Second, you already have the D&H acquiring the Binghamton to Syracuse portion of this secondary, which would have meant the DL&W Chenango Jct (just north of Binghamton NY) to Utica branch the E-L had most probably wouldn't have been cut in half by the Susy Q since the E-L would have controlled it till 1999, then whether the E-L handed it off to the D&H or kept it might be looked at. D&H having that branch to add to the Chenango Jct to Syracuse secondary(mainline?) might make sense.

This map shows both the Chenango to Utica branch and trackage rights to Corning NY to Williamsport PA.

http://www.erielackhs.org/images/storie ... _map-s.gif

How does the M&E and Gladstone branches figure into the plan?

If I could add one more historical revision 'what if' it would be not to give the entire right of way from Totowa to Paterson for I-80 and retain the trackage.

Greg wrote:How does the M&E and Gladstone branches figure into the plan?

If I could add one more historical revision 'what if' it would be not to give the entire right of way from Totowa to Paterson for I-80 and retain the trackage.

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't that ROW taken by eminent domain?

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't that ROW taken by eminent domain?

No, it was not. There was actually an offer to make room for the Erie Lackawanna to keep a one track Right of Way adjacent to the highway.

Okay, thank you--I appreciate the correction.

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:

Greg wrote:How does the M&E and Gladstone branches figure into the plan?

If I could add one more historical revision 'what if' it would be not to give the entire right of way from Totowa to Paterson for I-80 and retain the trackage.

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't that ROW taken by eminent domain?

Charlie

In this history, the RoW around Garret Mountain along I-80 does happen and the DL&W Boonton Line is maintained as a primary freight route. In addition, the connection the EL built between the DLW Boonton Line and the ERIE Main Line is also built and passenger trains are re-routed to the way NJ Transit runs the trains today. The ERIE Main in Downtown Passaic is torn out in this alternate reality too.

In reality, the state of New Jersey offered to build a single track main that would parallel NJ-19 and I-80 between Clifton and Totowa. The EL declined this offer and took the money for the real estate instead. This forced them to run heavy trains over the ex-NYGL which was not designed for long and heavy trains. For double height clearance (stack trains) the only hight clearance project would have to be the Kingsland Station and Tunnel area.

Greg wrote:How does the M&E and Gladstone branches figure into the plan?

If I could add one more historical revision 'what if' it would be not to give the entire right of way from Totowa to Paterson for I-80 and retain the trackage.

The M&E and Gladstone lines are retained and owned by Erie Lackawanna. They operate the passenger service on their own until the NJDOT began subsidizing the railroads for passenger operations. They continue to operate with NJDOT funds and purchased equipment (U34CHs, Comet Is) until 1983. NJ Transit is formed and they take ownership of all the passenger equipment. However, they are mearly a tenant on the Erie Lackawanna New York Division. However, their trains are run with their equipment and crews. Money from NJ Transit is used to re-electrify the Morristown Line and Gladstone Line. Also, by 1988, the Bergen County Line from HX to WJ (Ridgewood JCT) is upgraded to three tracks. The Boonton Line is upgraded to three tracks from LYNDHURT DRAW to CP JN (where the ERIE Newark Branch ties in). From Ridgewood JCT to CP SF however, the 4th track is removed and the railroad retains three tracks between those points. This was done to accomodate Erie Lackawanna freight trains and to improve NJ Transit passenger train service.

As for the DLW Boonton Line around Garret Mountain, the new single track connection runs from CP FS (where the current Totowa Industrial stub ends) and CP JN.

Clif wrote:Given that Conrail didn't get anything from E-L they would need the NYC Williamsport to Lyons connection for the traffic that existed at the time. CR was able to abandon the NYC lines because they had the Binghamton to Scranton line from E-L which they wouldn't have had under your scenario. Only the Lyons to Newberry Jct. Pa through Williamsport could connect the old Harrisburg Pa thru Northumberland traffic to the NYC mainline for Conrail's existence since it has no connections east of there any more for this traffic.

Since EL is getting the NYC mainline in this scenario, I don't think CR would have had any assets in Syracuse. Therefore, I can see E somehow acquiring the ex-NYC/Fall Brook from Corning to Williamsport.

On the other hand, I don't see EL giving up the SU&B to NYSW. Why give up a source of traffic? Maybe NYSW would have gotten the Geneva Cluster instead... including the former NYC between Corning and Lyons.

Well it has been over a year since I started this thread. Since that time, I've done my homework and have drawn up a much more detailed, slightly more believable, and interactive system map using Google Maps Engine.

Modern Erie Lackawanna System Map - Effective 12:01AM, January 01, 2014

Map Features

1. An interactive complete system map of the Modern Erie Lackawanna.
2. The full system of the Modern Delaware & Hudson.
3. Lines or yards in black are trackage or haulage rights on other railroads.
4. The individual Erie Lackawanna divisions are separated by color.

Some names have changed in some locations. I'm trying to show a way that the company may have reorganized over time. Especially after the Conrail split of 1999.

Take this with an open mind and enjoy!

Hi Sully,

This is great! I plan to take a bunch of time dissecting this. I was wondering a short while back
if you were still working on this project........I guess you have been!

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:Hi Sully,

This is great! I plan to take a bunch of time dissecting this. I was wondering a short while back
if you were still working on this project........I guess you have been!

Charlie

Yes, the project is most definitely alive! I've even made another video since I last posted! Erie Lackawanna at the Lehigh & Keystone Valley Museum

This is a great project. It has opened up much discussion on the possibility that two railroads could have come out of the Penn Central bankruptcy.

In 1975, the N&W decides it wants out of the Dereco and New York State and works a deal to sell a package of routes on the cheep to the new EL to consist of the following:

1. The entire D&H
2. Eastern end of the Nickel Plate from Buffalo to Cleveland
3. Former Clover Leaf from Toledo to St. Louis and their interest in the Detroit and Toledo Shore Line.

The USRA works a deal to enhance the EL that makes their system more competitive in 1976:

1. Reading RR
2. Leigh Valley
3. Toledo & Ohio Central
4. Chicago to Detroit (former Michigan Central)
5. Former PRR from Hagerstown to Wilkes Barre
6. Former PRR between Baltimore and Elmira, N.Y.
7. Trackage rights on the River Line between Albany to a connection with the EL at Newburg, N.Y.
8. Former Big Four from Cleveland to St. Louis; Gallion, OH through Columbus to Cincinnati; Indianapolis to Cincinnati, Battle Creek, MI to Anderson, IN (part of this route is former LSMS)

USRA funds an arrangement to connect the NKP in Cleveland directly to the Big Four.