Drug use among Amtrak employees

Noel Weaver wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:Before you jump to conclusions please read the attached from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, I think it will clear the air in so far as Amtrak Engineers are concerned.

http://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/newsflash.asp?id=5341

Noel Weaver

Didn't the BLET and other operating unions fight random drug testing after the 1987 Chase, Md disaster? Sorry, the BLET doesn't have any credibility on this issue, and hasn't had any credibility since fighting the bad fight against drug testing.

YOU do not have any credibility on this issue either. No engineer with any conscience at all is proud of what happened in Chase, Maryland. It was a dark mark on all of us. We all knew that random testing was coming at the time and we had Rickey Gates to thank for it too. Having said that, your remarks about the BLE are way out of order, the union has NEVER stood in the way of safety in the industry and that includes drug testing. Personally I have no resepct for any railroader who does drugs and especially on the job, it is not necessary. For your information the vast majority of engineers and conductors are drug free, can't you admit that, that is all I ask for.
Noel Weaver

They have far more credibility than most on the issue since they(like a number of employees) probably read the full 25 page report the IG issued.

Basically, the media took a large document, repeated statements without the benefit of context, splashed it with tons of eye-catching adjectives (alarming, staggering, dangerously, blistering) and foisted it upon the general public who are obviously eager to accept it (not unlike some people in this thread.)

Fortunately, one person seems to "get it:"

Milwaukee_F40C wrote:The CNN article is ambiguous. Amtrak employees failed drug tests 51% more than what railroad industry average percentage? 1%? 50%?

And since Amtrak employees are a small fraction of total railroad employees, a small number of Amtrak employees who fail drug tests can result in Amtrak's statistic appearing much higher than what is likely a very small average for the whole industry.

Well spoken! It is all left to your imagination. What is the railroad average? How many people actually failed? Was it 2 for every railroad and 3 for Amtrak? How many people were actually tested? The 25% number is the required test number. The IG stated that the subject railroad (and many others) routinely exceed this number. Yet, no one even asked if more people are tested. Which craft(s) had the highest failure rate? Engineers? Conductors? Electricians? Dispatchers? Operators? ]Maintainers? Was the 51% a spike in one year or the average for the years in question? The article lumps everything into a giant ball and heaves it, causing it to bounce all over the place.

I'm not that surprised at your position Mr Goodnightjohnwayne. it was fully expected and I'm surprised you didn't bring the union into this sooner. What throws me off is this:

Tadman wrote:This is really disappointing. To me, the substance abuse field is a place the union could really add value but doesn't. If the abuse rate goes up, the benefits should go down and the COLA increases should cease. You can bet the people serving would be a lot better at self-policing this problem if such were the case, and the group as a whole would strive for improvement. Not to mention the fact that substance abuse is detrimental to home life and health - something the union should care about for their constituency.

Substance abuse is not necessarily something you can hide, especially when you work with the same people repeatedly and socialize with them in off-hours.

You caught my attention, so now I'll ask you to back up your assessment.

Why do you think the union doesn't add value?
What is the self policing policy and how do you know it didn't have a dramatic impact on the IG's report?
Have you ever heard of a "functioning alcoholic?" Additionally, what makes you certain that railroaders are close knit to actually deduce that someone is in trouble? Of the crafts mentioned, how many usually work alone for long periods of time vs in teams?

You find the article disappointing and that is fine, Tadman. There are assumptions in the report that I take exception to. There are also things in the report that make a lot of sense and provided valuable information. However, when I look at the actual numbers and think of what this industry looked like 22 years ago, I'm damn proud. Is there still work to accomplish? Certainly 1 incident is 1 too many. But it is a FAR cry from "kid, move the damn water out the way. My beer is going to get cold."

Things like this make being here extremely frustrating. The members are free to post away without fact (yes, the Acela test train was doing 170 mph!) or repercussion. Those who actually have access to the facts have sit on their hands wondering if the debate and truth is worth the risk of losing it all.

I can't say I wasn't warned when I got here.

Given recent revelation that the article appears to have some major factual problems, my disappointment is now toward the writer rather than the workers . It's no surprise in this age of people believing Drudge, Gawker, or Huffpo as actual news that sensationalism is the rule rather than the exception.

If the article actually has serious errors, then the paper really does owe the workers an apology, in public. Drug use is no joke, and the only thing worse is publicly labeling good people as "drug users". It makes the general public - myself included - think that a group of honest people are druggies, and that's not something I would want to happen to me.

Thirdrail, your frustration is justified.

As the original poster, I just wanted to add, that I had not really commented on the article for a number of reasons, including wanting other feedback.

And too because like other posters the 51% higher number struck me as a "scare" number. Seriously, if it's 3 vs 2 (well that would be 50%, not 51% but the point is the same) while that's 3 too many that's a far cry from 300 vs 200 or something similar.

I tend to be against drug testing in most cases. (I basically turned down a job years ago because the company required drug testing. And while there was no doubt I'd pass, the idea of drug-testing for programmers struck me as too invasive). In general, I find the requirement too invasive into ones personal life and if drug use (legal or otherwise) impacts ones job, it's generally noticeable. That said, I think the are positions where the risk of failure is high enough as to warrant such privacy invasions and I fully support them in cases like engineers, conductors and the like. As the unfortunate accident at Chase, MD illustrates, the risks are just too high.

That said, I don't know the BLET's stance on drug testing. I would hope it's one of ensuring it's fair and properly done.

To step up on a soapbox briefly, while many people blame unions for so many issues, (as an aside, I saw a recent thread elsewhere where a commentator basically blamed everything wrong in America on unions) I believe they continue to have relevance and this is a perfect case. If say an engineer did test positive, I would hope (actually expect) that BLET would ensure they received a fair hearing (I mean if the guy ate a poppy-seed bagel and comes up positive, I'd really not want to see him fired. On the flip side, if he's actually guilty, I'd like to see action taken.)

This is an area where the tensions between the unions protecting the rights and interests of the employees and the corporations (in this case Amtrak) should ideally net out to a better playing field for all.

One more aside (sorry, very verbose tonight), but the more I read up on the knowledge that engineers have to have, the more impressed I am by the job they do. It's certainly not your grandfather's image of "got the highball, let's run as fast as we can" (even if that image was never true

I don't necessarily agree with drug testing either, however, its just part of the job, and im fine with that.

To me, its just like missing holidays, working the on call list, and having to be some god foresaken place at some god foresaken time. I knew it when I signed up for it, and its part of the gig. Thats it.

The unions stance on this is that 1) they don't want the employee to come up dirty in the first place, 2) if they do or would come up dirty, (or notify the union or company before getting tested) they want to be able to help that person. And by helping that person, there are many ways that can be done, but of course, it means that they wouldn't work at that instant, as safety is absolutely first. The railroad has VERY SPECIFIC drug and alcohol policies, and they are VERY long and VERY complicated. The unions job is to make sure the Company follows its own rules with regard to the situation (and really any situation involving the Company and an Employee).

Also, lets remember, we call it "DNA" testing, but its really Drug AND Alcohol testing.

Some pretty irresponsible "reporting" being done on the front page of this web site.

http://www.railroad.net/amtrak-now-on-a ... ators.html

I think the header should be changed from "news" to "opinion" as what was written is clearly not objective news reporting.

-otto-

I agree. I think the intent was good, but it may be a case of poor communications skills, perhaps temporarily in a rush or something. It sure is a canvas painted with a broad stroke, that's for sure !

3rdrail wrote:I agree. I think the intent was good, but it may be a case of poor communications skills, perhaps temporarily in a rush or something. It sure is a canvas painted with a broad stroke, that's for sure !

Paul, clearly you're not thinking of the women and children that we put on Amtrak.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:
Paul, clearly you're not thinking of the women and children that we put on Amtrak.

-otto-

?

Noel Weaver wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:Before you jump to conclusions please read the attached from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, I think it will clear the air in so far as Amtrak Engineers are concerned.

http://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/newsflash.asp?id=5341

Noel Weaver

Didn't the BLET and other operating unions fight random drug testing after the 1987 Chase, Md disaster? Sorry, the BLET doesn't have any credibility on this issue, and hasn't had any credibility since fighting the bad fight against drug testing.

YOU do not have any credibility on this issue either. No engineer with any conscience at all is proud of what happened in Chase, Maryland. It was a dark mark on all of us. We all knew that random testing was coming at the time and we had Rickey Gates to thank for it too. Having said that, your remarks about the BLE are way out of order, the union has NEVER stood in the way of safety in the industry and that includes drug testing. Personally I have no resepct for any railroader who does drugs and especially on the job, it is not necessary. For your information the vast majority of engineers and conductors are drug free, can't you admit that, that is all I ask for.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver, you're old enough to remember just how hard the operating unions fought random drug testing after the Chase, MD disaster. Actually, the unions took the fight so far into the appeals courts, that much of the case law concerning workplace drug testing was actually set at the time, and needless to say, the unions that fought drug testing lost, over and over again. Back in 2008, the UTU and BLET were still fighting against a new and improved drug testing rule set by the USDOT. So yes, labor was against drug testing, they still fight it, and it is 100% wrong and detrimental to safety.

Otto Vondrak wrote:Some pretty irresponsible "reporting" being done on the front page of this web site.

http://www.railroad.net/amtrak-now-on-a ... ators.html

I think the header should be changed from "news" to "opinion" as what was written is clearly not objective news reporting.

-otto-

The "reporting" in question appears to link to the Washington Post, a well known left-of-center newspaper and typically quite favorable to Amtrak. The Washington Port article, which is a reprint from the AP, comes from the Business section and doesn't appear to be opinion based?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html

A person in my family spent time in a substance rehabilitation facility in the Northeast. She mentioned to me that there were a disturbing amount of Amtrak employees, including a number of Acela employees. I don't know if this happened to be the facility that Amtrak sent employees that didnt deserve to be fired or just happened to be a facility where Amtrak workers who suffered from substance/alchohol abuse would feel most comfortable.

While the uninformed would associate all alcoholics and drug addicts with a low-life unemployed grimey lifestyle, my family member made sure to reiterate how widespread the problem is. Often right under our nose are people suffering from addiction. At the afformentioned rehab facility, people from all walks of life(from cops to teachers to doctors to Amtrak employees) were seeking(or forced to seek) treatment. We non-railroad employees often glamorize the profession of riding the rails day in and day out, but the thing is they suffer the same(if not more) stresses as everybody else with a high pressure job and inconsistent hours.

I know a number of signal maintainers and track folks who've been to rehab over the years,including yours truly. No harm in it and no shame either. There's a lot of crap out in the world that
does a good job of screwing with a persons head.

Freddy wrote:I know a number of signal maintainers and track folks who've been to rehab over the years,including yours truly. No harm in it and no shame either. There's a lot of crap out in the world that
does a good job of screwing with a persons head.

Let me add that I never failed a test and never attempted to cheat a test. I simply recognized a potential problem before it could get a good start.

Freddy wrote:I know a number of signal maintainers and track folks who've been to rehab over the years,including yours truly. No harm in it and no shame either. There's a lot of crap out in the world that
does a good job of screwing with a persons head.

Freddy - No, absolutely not. Why would there be shame in admitting that because you don't have backbone that you're forced to get high, putting thousands of passengers that put their trust in you at risk of serious injury or death. My advice to you - Toughen up !

Otto Vondrak wrote:Paul, clearly you're not thinking of the women and children that we put on Amtrak.

Otto, would you mind explaining your above comment ? I still can't figure it out. I was referring to the article highlighted, nothing else.

3rdrail wrote:

Freddy wrote:I know a number of signal maintainers and track folks who've been to rehab over the years,including yours truly. No harm in it and no shame either. There's a lot of crap out in the world that
does a good job of screwing with a persons head.

Freddy - No, absolutely not. Why would there be shame in admitting that because you don't have backbone that you're forced to get high, putting thousands of passengers that put their trust in you at risk of serious injury or death. My advice to you - Toughen up !

I take strong exception to your comment. There is no shame in admitting you need help. To me, that is a sign of strength...not weakness. Secondly, nowhere in the comment did he say he did it while employed or on duty for the railroad. He mentioned he was in rehab at some point. You don't even know if it was for drugs or alcohol.

Which brings me to my final point. I'm not aware of the specifics of Freddy's comments. I'm not particularly interested either. However, I do know someone that was in a major derailment, complete with fire and death. That person had major injuries and was out of work for quite some time. When the person came back, he was fired for RULE G for using the exact medication that was prescribed for him. It was lingering in his system. It took weeks to resolve and he made it back. Since the pain never really went away, he went back to the medication and took a medical leave of abscence. Ultimately, he became addicted to the very drugs that were supposed to help him and he resigned.

Do you know that Freddy's story isn't similiar?

Who are you to judge ANYONE? Aren't you the same person the RUINED someones thread by advocating bringing knives to Penn Station to the point the OP asked for the damn thing to be LOCKED??? You're telling someone to TOUGHEN UP???

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!