Converting Horizon Cars to Slumbercoaches

I've read some post concerning the idea of bringing back slumber coaches. I was wondering if it would be possible to convert Horizon cars into slumber coaches. For example could the structure of the horizon cars support beds that are hanging from the walls. Some people in other discussions thought to refurbish the old slumber coaches, but these cars don't have chemical retention toilets.

I suggest using the horizon cars because with the introduction of california cars to replace the horizons, the need to be move the horizons somewhere else because there only about 20 years old. There currently aren't any routes that would want to use these cars. Unless amtrak is planning routes in Texas, Arizona and Florida to be started after the bi levels are delivered, the horizons won't be needed. The horizons have a chemical retention system so that wouldn't be needed in a conversion. I've heard that the slumber coaches had narrow beds, I suggest not having a toilet in the room and making the beds slightly wider. From what I've read, this will be seen as heresy on the East Coast, but since Amtrak doesn't have money for that, one restroom per car would be enough. The cars should also be winterized enough to be used in cold weather and not fail. Also change the lighting to make them less like commuter cars.

The way they should be used, are by having some limited stop overnight trains. By this I mean a train from LA to SF and a few other comparable routes in a few other places. These trains would have 2-3 slumber coaches, a cafe car, 2 coaches converted to LD configuration and a baggage car. Having few stops would make it less difficult for stops in western states that don't have high level platforms. The trains wouldn't have food service included in the ticket, which would lead to a lower price. 50 to 60 dollars per night would be good to attract ridership for a single room and 90 to 100 for a double room plus the coach ticket fare. Also not subjecting these rooms to demand based pricing formula to keep the upgrade price from tripling or increasing sharply like it has on eastern trains.

I don't think the Horizon's aluminum shells are strong enough to be converting into slumber coaches.

But I agree many should have their seating configuration changed for long distance to augment Amfleet IIs in that service which Amtrak always seems to be short in numbers. Presently, Amtrak has 120 Amfleet II coaches with a seating capacity near 60 and 80 Horizons coaches with a seating capacity near 70.

Why would anyone pay to convert coaches to uncomfortable and cramped sleepers when sleeping cars are being built? Additionally, there is an option to buy more. It seems like a waste of money.

The big advantage of Slumbercoaches was that they were affordable, especially for solo travelers, and even though I'm six feet tall I never found them overly cramped. Amtrak current prices roomette accommodations for parties of two and as far as I'm concerned they cost a lot more than I want to pay. I would welcome a return to discount sleepers as an option, although I'm not expecting it to happen.

ThirdRail7 wrote:Why would anyone pay to convert coaches to uncomfortable and cramped sleepers when sleeping cars are being built? Additionally, there is an option to buy more. It seems like a waste of money.

There isn't any plans to build slumber coaches or any more affordable sleeping accommodations. Besides, does anyone believe that the buy more option will ever get funded? I believe the bi level order has a "buy more" option, it might get used because the states are paying for these cars. Even if money has been allocated for the buy more part of the sleeper car order it most likely will get redirected by the Republicans or taken away.

I'm advocating overnight service and not using the converted horizons in regular trains. Western trains use Superliners, which means single level equipment isn't compatible. Introducing overnight service like in Europe can generate revenue. The cars should be used for this service and new cars should be considered for the existing LD trains. Besides, as I pointed in the original post, most people don't like the horizon cars anyways. Also, unless other routes are being planned, as mentioned previously, no one wants these cars for regular service.

Here is a comprehensive topic addressing the 24-8 Budd Slumbercoach originated "back in my day around here when I was at the throttle":

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 46&t=16508

What I think has been germane to discussion of any economy sleeper arrangement is whether one can present an economic argument or whether it is just another rendition of the tired old "I don't feel like/can't afford/whatever/ paying their robbery Sleeper prices" or the "hey, they have 'em overseas, don't they?".

The fact remains that only one economy sleeper ever made economic sense; and that was the 24-8 Budd during the time when fares were regulated, demand pricing was a "what's that?", and the normal Standard Sleeper accommodated 22 passengers. Absent these parameters, an economy sleeper would simply represent allocating capital towards a product that would do nothing other than dilute existing revenue levels.

I should note that the "worst of the worst" of these economy sleepers were those on my road - the MILW Touralux. These lightweight cars were built new, yet had the same configuration - 14 Sections - in which the revenue yield per unit was maybe 65% of the same standard Sleeper. Other roads with economy sleepers, particularly in Canada, used heavyweight cars in which the capital cost had already been recovered.

Finally, best advice to those who choose to watch the pocketbook; look for low fare "buckets" on the Amtrak (or the independent unaffiliated Amsnag) website, then go enjoy your ride.

Amtrak should standardize on one or two sleeper room designs, like a Hoiday Inn. They should not offer lots of small rooms. Look at it this way. This is a history lesson. A 22 roomette sleeper had 22 plumbing units, HVAC systems, sets of linen, you name it. An 11, 12 or 13 double bedroom car had only 11, 12 or 13. You could always sell a double bedroom to one person, but you couldn't sell a roomette to two. Charge one price for a room with one occupant, another when two use the space. As far as the plumbing and HVAC, as the car gets older, things start to need repair or replacing. It is probably easier to rebuild a car with only 11, 12 or 13 systems than one with 22.

Although I hope there is a good future for all types of passenger service I think the best future is in corridor type services and for corridor type services the Horizon cars will serve the purpose. I think there is a reasonable possiblty that corridor type servies will grow in the next few years and more cars will likely be needed. As mentioned previosly on here more sleeping cars are on the way. Would I like to see the return of moderately priced sleeping accomodations like slumbercoaches, of course I would but this would not be the way to accomplish that.
Noel Weaver

It should be interesting as to WHAT is actually delivered in this Viewliner II order. CAF has pictures of Viewliners in various stages, but has anyone seen a complete furbished car. I bet they make it to Viewliner Diner and Baggage Cars, and then the order is deferred or delayed. I have no faith in this Viewliner II order, regardless as to who is sitting in the Whitehouse come January 1, 2013. And there have already been delays in the Viewliner II production.

Best thing that Amtrak could do - start transitioning the Superliner Trans/Dorm Sleepers into revenue space and put the crew throughout the Superliner Sleepers and Superliner Trans/Dorm Sleeper - the same philosophy that Amtrak has done with the Viewliner fleet in dealing with the crew. The Superliner Trans/Dorm Sleeper has a lot of revenue potential, both in current configuration or if it has the lower level overhauled (e.g. converting the crew lounge on lower level to sleeper space).

jp1822 wrote:It should be interesting as to WHAT is actually delivered in this Viewliner II order. CAF has pictures of Viewliners in various stages, but has anyone seen a complete furbished car. I bet they make it to Viewliner Diner and Baggage Cars, and then the order is deferred or delayed. I have no faith in this Viewliner II order, regardless as to who is sitting in the Whitehouse come January 1, 2013. And there have already been delays in the Viewliner II production.

Best thing that Amtrak could do - start transitioning the Superliner Trans/Dorm Sleepers into revenue space and put the crew throughout the Superliner Sleepers and Superliner Trans/Dorm Sleeper - the same philosophy that Amtrak has done with the Viewliner fleet in dealing with the crew. The Superliner Trans/Dorm Sleeper has a lot of revenue potential, both in current configuration or if it has the lower level overhauled (e.g. converting the crew lounge on lower level to sleeper space).

Either this, or with an expanded order of V-II bag dorms. No need for Horizon Slumbercoaches, in my opinion.