Commute from Hell

Even though I've managed to piss off every member of the railroad craft unions on this board, the things you've had to say have been very insightful in terms of illustrating the sorry state of labor/management relations at the LIRR. There seems to be a real blame the other side mentality at work. Frankly, it's counterproductive.

This "know-nothing" does not lump LIRR employees into two camps, labor and management. When things go wrong, I feel as if I have been let down by everyone - from Jim Dermody to the most junior car cleaner. So even though I still feel you are somewhat accountable for what happened yesterday, I am sorry you feel offended. Of course, I am still waiting for an apology from the railroad which I don't think I will ever receive.

Having said that, I would urge everyone who works for the Long Island Rail Road to rethink the labor/management relationship because it is outdated and obviously doesn't work any more. From what I gather, the railroad views labor as the brawn and management as the brains, i.e. rank-and-file workers aren't paid to think or make decisions.

That model doesn't work in the 21st Century. For starters, too much has been invested in training people for skilled positions to not have them involved in making decisions. Anyone with the skills to work on sophisticated equipment like the M-7 or a state-of-the-art track control system is qualified to think for themselves.

I sense that the role of management - at least at the supervisory level - needs to be rethought. Managers need to act as stewards of resources - labor, machinery, materials, etc. When a train breaks down, as happened yesterday, their role should be to secure whatever is necessary to get it out of the way as quickly as possible and to get service restored.

They have a role in observing work done to ensure that it is performed correctly and that employees due not take undue safety risks. Further, they should be identifying and promoting the use of best practices. They also need to serve as the communication conduit to make sure affected stakeholders, i.e. passengers, other employees, are provided with information they need.

How much trouble is it to create a recorded message that says: "Due to a disabled train at xxx, service on the Long Beach branch is subject to delays of 40 minutes or more. Please listen for further announcements." It's like being married. You're going to get a lot more sugar if you tell your wife you love her know and then.

At the same time, front-line employees need to be empowered to make decisions. But, keep in mind, with decision making comes accountability and you must be willing to accept that trade-off. Can you handle it?

Even if LIRR had payed attention to the forecast, what could they have done. As far as I know(and if I'm wrong, someone in the know please correct me), LIRR, along with every other RR in the world, doesn't have any kind of mirical pixy dust that can prevent chemical reactions that cause the problems that occured, such as rails contracting.

It's the same thing with driving. You know the cold and snow and ice is comming, but what can you do? Get some really good auto insurance and hope you wont have to use it?

"LIRR trains are never late they just arrive at the wrong time." Why would the workers of the LIRR care if things like yesterday happen? The large majority made overtime. They are not rewarded when trains are on time. They are rewarded when they are late.

Even though OT sounds nice, I highy doubt that any one yesterday wanted to be stranded for hours listening to bickering commuters. That's what 90% of their time is doing. When I wait for NYA to come thru Farmingdale, every now and then a train is laid up in the station due to whatever issue that prevents it from running. The conductors wait outside and tell the passengers to get out and get some fresh air, or if things look bad enough they will tell them to catch a cab/bus.

You should see some of the abuse some conductors get and it's really ashamed. What else can they do? There is nothing else they can do beyond the point of informing you what the recent situation is. I cannot speak for any of the LIRR employees on this one, but I think anyone would admitt that after a long 8 hour shift, no one wants to sit somewhere for hours doing nothing. They want to get home.


The LIRR doesn't hault trains just because they feel like it. Remember, that's lost revenue for them.

Boy does this remind me when we had LILCO to beat up on. I was a LILCO worker until it was bought out by KeySpan. Now I work for them. I remember going out after storms to people blaming us for them not having power and putting up with this abuse and not being able to say a word even after working 16+ hours a day for days on end. Now you can't complain to anyone, LIPA doesn't have to listen to the public, see your rates are what they were when LILCO was here. Everyone has a better way to run a business. I'm not saying the RR screwed up, but give the workers a break, go to a MTA (if you can find one) meeting or write the inept policial people and complain to them. Like said before, what would it be like without the LIRR? I'm driving into LIC in the off shifts and traffic is horrible any time of the day. I wish I could take the train!

Mike

To better answer Theman, No OT is not something that I go running around for, and certainly not needed when we have to sit around a packed train filled with brain dead commuters who only care about themselves and whats good for them. Thats what we call blood money, so sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm sure there were many employees who'd wished that they were off that day as much as I did. We don't get it as a reward so please spare the comments, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

To LILoco, sure it's easy to say that we should somehow fix the so-called labor/ manager problem, try going up to one of those over zealous managers and see where you end up. OK, so we should walk up to our superiors and say "you're wrong", and they'll just pat you on the back and agree with you. Yeah right. At that time I hope that the union will do a good job of defending my actions. The RR is just like any other company in coporate America. You never question the top brass, and even if they are dead wrong, which they are 99% of the times, you still don't have the right to say something. In a union job, refusal to accept orders is looked upon as a refusal to do your job, so in other words, if some idiot manager who graduated with BA degree in Business Management who has absolutely no idea what makes a train move or work tells you to put a part on backwards, well then you better just do it. Just like this past weekend an order was issued out to us to have all our cars in our consist open. Imagine a 12 car train operating on the Long Beach branch, it doesn't fit anywhere, it doesn't even have the ridership to support that amount of cars, and it's quite simply dangerous. You think we can just say "No I won't do it because........"??? Not if you like your job. There are as much politics in the upper management as there is in any company in this country, that's the way the world works.

If you feel that it was a let down by all the employees of the RR, you have to then re-think the way the chain of command works. Once again, you will absolutely accomplish nothing if you go against management, even if you are dead against their wishes which we are most of the times. Hate to tell you, but a cleaner, an Engineer, a Conductor, a track worker are absolutely nobody important to the upper management. They don't care about what we say or think, they only care about what they think, thats why the raise in fares was easily approved. Hate to tell you but the MTA doesn't give a rats ass about the commuter either. Also, recorded messages are played at stations, especially when there is a delay of some sort. I have heard it numerous times before. That the speakers at your station might have malfunctioned would not have been unusual, yet still that service exist.

On one last note, yes, with the demise of LILCO, the LIRR is the new punching bag. I just saw on News 12 a report on a second day of delays on the LIRR, and how some genious compared us to MNR saying that they do a better job than the LIRR does yet they get more bad weather than we do. This is why the media has no knowledegeof the things they report on. First off, during last years winter, MNR repeatedly was forced to operate a weekend schedule during peak rush hours because a large percentage of their electric fleet was out of service because of weather related malfunctions. During those times, the LIRR valiantly or stupidly (whatever you want to call it) attempted to operate a normal weekday schedule and succeeded with delays. Do the statistics on this and see how on-time performance measures up the stats when one company is running a Sunday schedule while the other is providing it's customers with better more reliable service on a very poor day in weather. Another interesting thing to note, MNR tracks were further north and did not have the actual drastic drop in temperature as was experienced on the LIRR. We actually changed from rain to snow in less than 40 minutes, and I know because I witnessed it all on Sunday night at work. Lastly, as is already known for many years, the MNR third rail is completely different than ours. With very light snow and even ice, MNR's third rail (under-contact) is actually shielded from most of the inclimate weather while the third rail on the LIRR is top-contact and can allow ice and snow to build up preventing the third rail shoe beams from making contact onto the third rail. One flip side to that however is that with a very heavy snow fall, MNR's third rail would be completely covered while the LIRR third rail can spare more height to allow contact to be made. Maybe if the media did their homework, maybe people would be a little more educated, it's something which lacks in this country these days.

The Media would screw up there own funeral arangements if possible.

you say to them that "the train was running late due to poor weather conditons."

they turn it around and tweek it to sound much worse. " the LIRR is experincing canclation of trains due to switch malfunctions"
was that any thing to what they were origionaly told?
ofcoruse not.
thats just an example, but u get the point(?)

Also just like any job there is tooo much shit being thrown at the rotery osolator, but when the shit hits some top brass in the face, be prepared to pay for it.... (hey, fellow peions doesent it just suck, untill we graduate to top brass )

and with that 12 car door thing on the long beach branch, i hope it woulda been some top brass (that herd the annousment) that falls out and gets a
"lively" 700 volt ZAP!!!! wouldent that be funny (for the rest of the top brass to WAKE THE F@%# UP that is)
?? what if 1 of the conductors were able to record that life and death order from the "WELL EDUCATED" and then disobay it for the "SAFETY" of the people on that train. then when confrunted. find every thing including the money spent in safety first programs and so on. then zing it to them in a state supreme court. now its not a game of politcs but its a game of mob like murder "top brass, give u, his hitman, to carry out the fatial orders, and u [b/c u have to] carry out the fatial orders.)
trust me, that wount look to good to the general public, once that infamous media gets there hands on that story
MEDIA: LIRR topbrass accused of forcing a unecessary comand that put LIRR passengers lives at risk.
in the end i think the FRA and NTSB would investagate this topbrass shit and some one will be getting a big ASS WOOPEN of COMMON SENCE???


any one who currently deal's w/ there b/s please help me out on that. i think it would really get the ball rolling and the "shit" put back in the trash can, instad of being tossed in the air.

Cliner..

The LIRR's policy is this. The Conductor is in charge of the management of the train, the Engineer in operating the train. Both are responsible for train movement, i.e. rules interpretation, following procedure..anything associated with getting the train over the road. If the Conductor and Engineer cannot agree, they have to defer to the Chief Dispatcher and he has final say. Some Conductors and Engineers may disagree with me. All I can say is think about who told you whatever it is you think and if it's not the Rules Dept. it isn't worth the conversation. Call Rules and let them tell you the policy.

I'm an Engineer and on my train, I could care less how he runs his train back there, who works where or whatever. It's his responsibility and not my business nor do I have any say about it. Consequently, how I run my train or engine is my business and responsibility and anything associated with acting like Choo-Choo Charlie he has no say about it. Naturally, if either of us are outright violating rules, we're supposed to bring it to either of our's attention. Of course, common sense prevails in this.

The Engineer license didn't give Engineer's any more authority than they may have had before it. It did however, institute mandatory penalties for certain infractions. Speeding, running stop signals, disabling safety devices
and entering the main without proper authority. Only a Superintendant can order you to totally disregard serious rules. A low-level manager cannot order you through a stop-signal but a Superintendant can. As far as us C&E's having final say on safety...well unless there is a true chance of danger...I mean a head light in your face type danger, we have to follow managements directives. Or else its insubordination. See what I mean? The license gave us nothing in that regard. I can only say that anything safety related is taken case by case. Usually, the C&E's handle it themselves but if not...we defer to the bigwheels. Safety is so broad an issue that it has to be that way.

My feeling is that an airline Captain has much more authority on a plane than any C&E on a train.

All it really did Cliner, was give us more discipline. It also created the "Designated Supervisor of Locomotive Engineers" which is a management person who is an Engineer..Road Foremen and such. These are the managers who are an Engineers supervisor and boss and consequently decide if something we did (Engineer related) was right or wrong. Which isn't bad. At least you can talk "turkey" and such about Engineer type procedures. All railroads are supposed to publish a list of DSLE's every year. The LIRR does.

Hay Loco, if you read my post earlier, you received your apology.

You can throw stones all day; any crew that failed to make announcements broke rules; if the Movement Bureau didn't make announcements, they too failed, though it is much more likely that the station PA system was down -- it often is. There is an employee assigned to giving such information system-wide.

It's the Conductor and Engineers' jobs to make this place work. Most of them are very good at what they do. They are solely responsible for the passengers' comfort and do an excellent job.

They often receive stupid orders from one of scores of new, overzealous and underinformed managers. But a good crew knows how to deal with that and will get the job done -- that's what they a paid for.

Any employee who cares enough and has been around for awhile has access to at least one of several people upstairs who know what they are doing -- These guys get called at home day and night for advice, support or simply questions. As in any organization, there is an informal network of people who know exactly how to run the place.

What goes on across the river is of little consequence to the daily operation.

Again, LI Loco, the Railroad and I personally am sorry for any pain you had inflicted upon you...

The supervisor out your way is one of the best on the Road -- a 30 year Railroad man. I'll pass along your story.

Clem

To LILoco, sure it's easy to say that we should somehow fix the so-called labor/ manager problem, try going up to one of those over zealous managers and see where you end up. OK, so we should walk up to our superiors and say "you're wrong", and they'll just pat you on the back and agree with you.

Nobody said it was going to be easy. It's going to take a huge shift in thinking at every level of the organization. It has to begin with a recognition that things aren't going as well as they should be and that the existing system doesn't work.

Both managers and line workers need to rethink their roles and they need to be supported. It won't be easy. It will be painful and some people just won't be able to cut it in the new environment.

It will, however, result in:

• decisions made on the ground instead of in some board room
  better utilizations of resources
  greater responsiveness to customer needs
  employee empowerment
  improved job satsifaction

Clem -
Thanks for your insights into the way things work at the LIRR, and for your apology. Those "people upstairs who know what they are doing doing" are unsung heroes for making themselves accessible in the way you describe. There's no question that untrained managers can be more of a hindrance than a help. That's something the powers that be need to address. A manager who has never worked on a railroad has to be brought along the learning curve FAST. Otherwise, he'll be as successful as a football coach who has never played the game.

What actually happened on that morning was a combination of bad weather and a superintendent who could not figure out how to couple two eight car trains.
After the third rail shoes broke, three supervisors stormed the train. Trying to look like heros and ignoring the crew (who were mostly 20+ year veterans) they began cutting out brakes and controls without talking to the conductor or engineer.
They cut out a bunch of brakes and ordered the crew to run to fast. The crew, knowing this was dangerous and outright illegal called someone else in Jamaica to plead for the safety of their riders. They found someone who knew what they were doing and they took the people out of the cars with no brakes. Then the crew cut the brakes back in which the superintendent needlessly cut out and the train could be operated safely.
The arogance of this superintendent who was given his position probably because of his skin color was incredible. I was a passenger on that train, and I could not believe how nasty and stupid this man was. I cant believe the management of the rail road lets some people like this run around endangering lives this way.
The crew promised they would take their story higher and told me that this superintendent is known as a faker and a fraud and causes danger wherever he goes. They told me his name but I dont want to get anyone in trouble. I was on that train and saw all this first hand. It was very scary to say the least

Thanks VD. This is the best explanation I've read so far. However, I doubt skin color really played much of a role. This supervisor sounds like he would be a jerk no matter what color he was.

Well VD Yard, this is a true example of what we the crew have to deal with on a daily basis, and if it weren't for our alert minds at work, someone would end up getting seriously hurt or killed at the expense of some hot shot supervisor who thinks they know all the it takes to run a RR. Hopefully someday in the future the RR will revert back to the days when hiring for management was done internally, and not hiring some hot shot with a degree with no experience on how to work on a RR. Only then will things improve. In the mean time, al of us have to walk around doing our jobs with 10 extra pairs of eyes on our heads because believe me, if we just sit there and let those folks run the show on board our trains, it would be the end of it for all of us!

Hello.
Hey being cooped up ina tower that is built of kindling wood(cough PD)on Monday and freezing with wind blowing through every damn crack isn't so bad. BUT, getting yelled at because the crews were taking their time with the conditions we had. Higher ups said"He isn't moving yet???" I said they are doing the best they can!!! Well get his detention or delay. I must of went through 5 mood swings that night. I had a new dispatcher that night and we worked it all out just fine. BUT(second but) if the train left Babylon 8 mins late and got to Patchogue 11 mins late, I was questioned where did he lose the extra 3 minutes??? I understand they have to account for every damn minute now even if the train is 5 minutes and 59 seconds on time. This comes from the NUMBER 1 man on the Railroad. Some of you know me out there. No offense when I begin yelling and screaming with my loud outbursts,it is noway intended for you. It is THEM just getting to me and I have to vent somehow. There are days where I come home and take it out on friends and family. I love my job and the people who I deal with on a daily basis out East. There is not one crew member who does not give me a cheery hello to me. I'll always crews my famous"Thank You" and "Please". Well Enough said. On a brighter note
Everone here Have a Merry Holiday Season and A Happy New Year.
"This goes for you Emfinite also!!!!!
Florida East Coast Chris